1)From your reading and observations of society and culture, what aspects of postmodernism do you see in everyday life?
2) How do you think this impacts the way postmoderns should be approached with the gospel?
3)What questions does postmodernism bring to your mind?
Note: Respond to the above on the blog and/or to questions and comments of the other students. Please be free to comment to comment on each others postings and/or to question each other. This blog is for free flowing discussion. Also ask questions here that we did not have time to cover in class. For assessment: Note in the prescription that 5 comments per week is the minimum required for an A in this area.
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75 comments:
From my limited understanding of this topic i would have to say that my everyday observation of today's society and culture, in this western setting, is that reality is what one makes it; what one has been influenced to see it as by their surroundings. and this influence will not be the same for each individual therefore different realities occur, and no one individual has the right to denigh anothers reality. therefore we have become a very whatever society.
I agree with your comments about the postmodern thought being "what one makes it." How sad for individuals to be so unstable. The fact that they have no foundation is disturbing. Truth is a foundation and the postmodern thought cancels truth out. The truth becomes whatever the postmodernist makes it taking away the real truth which is God. I do believe it is an individual experience more than a community participation as we discussed in class. I would like to hear someones comments on the community aspect of postmodernism.
From what I understand, I think we live in the world that technology becomes more and more important and most of people try to believe that everything is based on science because they want to know the truth but they forget what the foundation of the truth is.
we all have different ideas and experiences. Something can be true but may be not true for me because of different realities that we are facing.
The gospel never change but the way we think is changing because we live in a postmodern world where people want what they wanted, they demand choices and freedom and truth.
I think we live in a postmodern world where people are not looking for the answer from the church anymore because of technology and sciences.
I want to know if we are sharing about Jesus for the next 30 years will it be the same? and what about culture? having faith will change the culture forever? Technologies are growing and what about our faith?
To Shawman:
You are correct in that reality is what one makes it. But it is the language we use and the community we associate with that is the philosophical basis of that realithy
To Jose:
I also would like to hear from others on their view of the community view determining their version of reality.
For you thoughts: Our "community" is the one of the Christian Worldview. Doesn't our distinct language and actions associated with that language determine what is "real" for us. In the high groud of philosophical thought, ultimate "reality" was thought to be that which never can be distroyed. What does everyone think??
To Eddie:
The faith in technology and science was the primary basis for human progress in the modern worldview. The postmodern worldview totally rejects that premise. On the contrary science is "one means"to power for postmoderns--cite the bomb.
However, it is "personal experience(s)"that do help establish the basis for their belief in reality for postmoderns. What does everyone think about Eddies comments?
Hello Class:
Please note that the definitions of modern and postmodern worldviews primarily apply to the "western" (both European and American) worldviews. If you are from an Eastern nation, your thoughts and "worldview" may be different. So.... as indicated in the initial questions, discuss with the class how your particular culture might have a varying worldview. Also, these are general philosophical mindsets and, of course, not every individual may act or think in either way all of the time. I hope to see more discussion from everyone shortly.
Tks
Prof. Nored
From the way where i come from, i never heard that they talk about the modernism or postmodernism...i know about the modern world that is the western side..therefore, i have learn to remeber that is truth somewhere but no prove or try to find the answer with the truth or prove it. I thought someboby that they not relate with the modernism worldview and also postmdernism worldview might have no idea with it. They might thought that there is some truth but they are fine now why they have to find out what it is.
From those questions along with the article, i have noticed that the postmodernism worldview try to figure out what the truth is no matter it's out there. They try to say that there is no truth but why they dont prove it (or maybe they are) so, im really confuss that what they actually believe on it and how they do with it.
Thanks Professor for your comments.
"Ultimate reality" for the Christian community that would be "God" wouldn't it, that which cannot be destroyed?
I agree in part to one of Eddie's comments on people not coming to the church anymore to find answers. Why would people who live in a postmodern world come to the church when half of them don't even believe in God and the other half believe in a God that suits them. 30/40 years ago you could talk to people about God and they would know who you were talking about and probably have little or some knowledge of the Bible. Today you have people who don't acknowledge there is a God. They make comments like "maybe there is, maybe there isn't, whatever!" In answer to your question Eddie, in 30 years time will we still be sharing Jesus? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Heb 13:8 he doesn't change, we do! So who knows, all I know is I'll be closer to my maker because I'll be 74 by then.
Following Jose's comment, i think that people in this world now live by their own they rely on what they have they dont care about God at all...they concern just themselves ...so i think that people will get far away from God if we not do our mission.
To Annie:
In the Eastern world, two different concepts can be held as both being true. That is not true for the Western world. The postmodern philosophy says there is no truth at all. Whereas, the modern philosophy said that truth exists and could be determined by reason. In our western world today, truth is "relative" --to what? To what the language says it is for the community that is imposing that "truth" for those in the community. Imposition of that "truth" is then nothing but a way to impose "power" over others.
To Eddie and Annie:
There is some validity to saying that truth is determined by the individual in the postmodern world. That is because it is the individual that decides what "community" of beliefs one decides is "truth" for them. However, in our postmodern world, individual are searching for relationship in a "community" where what they "say" , e.g. their language comports with their actions. They must the "authenic".
Everyone:
How does one reconcile what the "community" one is a part of says is truth with the "individual" says is truth??
Does a "community" impose truth on others (e.g communism, Christianity, socialism, atheism,etc) if allowed to prevail as the postmoderns believe?
Hey All, Prof,
Thinking about the community and individuals, I think that in a way individuals are affected by the communitys beliefs. For example, teenagers brought up in a very modernist church community would hold to the Church communities idea of truth. But if that same teenager also attended a secular high school with post-modernist worldview, their idea of truth is challenged, and often altered by the interaction with a different community with a different idea of truth. In these cases I KNOW that the community presses their idea of truth on the individual - you can accept the truth of one, eg School, and be included, or reject it for the truth of the other community you belong to, eg Church. Individuals operate within many communities - School, WOrk, CHurch, social clubs, family, etc - and each of these has its own truth! What truth then does an individual hold to? Their own truth , a mixed truth or a single truth that sees them possibly ostracised from many communities? What does post-modernism say to those people? Accept all truths or none?
Hey, just a q - If post-modernism accepts no truth, does that mean it accepts a lie or that no lie exists, since admitting a lie means admitting there is a truth?
getting confuse :)
Hey everyone :). Regarding the comments about post-modernism being an individual thing. Having the thought that there is no truth or reality in the world must be an incredibly scary, depressing and unsettling thing! I wonder post-modernists emphasise the need for community because it is a way of getting some sort of peace or happiness in a very uncertain world.
I was just looking through our notes from class on Friday and was thinking about the differences between modernism and post-modernism. Modernists see the need for rational thinking, to come to know the truth, and for structure in life; whereas post-modernists see the need for geniune relationships and a sense of belonging in the community. This made me remember a conversation I had with some of the elders at my church family in Australia a few months ago. We were talking about Jesus' prayer in John 17 and what Jesus was emphasising in this prayer. I believe that Jesus is emphasising that he wants Christians to be one just as he and the Father are one; however my elders believed that Jesus was emphasising that he wants all believers to come to know the truth. I believe both are important, but I think this shows the difference between a 'modernist' Christian and a 'post-modernist' Christian. I hope that makes sense. What do you guys think?
Actually that last comment I made brings up a question. One thing my elders were telling me is that they believe my generation will do a lot of damage to Christianity because we will compromise the truth to fit the culture. I wasn't sure how to respond to this, but I remember saying that it's important for us to be relevant to our culture, and if that means making some changes in the church then so be it. But I don't believe that means we're compromising the truth of Jesus Christ. My question is, I wasn't really sure how to respond to what they had to say. How do you respond to comments like that?
Nicholas and All:
You are very perceptive about the prayer that Christ prayed for unity as well as the different thinking between generations.
First, you will note that the Godhead is a "community" and unity of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--or Comforter. And, man was not created to be alone --it is not good for man to be alone. And, the church is certainly to be a community--not just a collection of individuals trying to find their own version of what they think the truth is. The theology of the Trinity being a community and man being man for community is a very important one.
Secondly, your perception of the difference in the way your elders view the culture and really the interpretation of the bible is very important. One responds to the elders from a "propositional" truth point of view--not a postmodern or relationship point of view. You ask such questions as "How did Paul respond to taking the gospel to the Jews and the Gentiles". Did Paul abandon his "Jewishness" with the Jews? Did he quote scripture to the Greeks? Did he parade his Jewishness to the Greeks? Also, one must address how much of a "pattern" is in the new testament worship. What are the essential elements of the "truth" as opposed to what we do by tradition.
But, one must be gentle when addressing issues like the above with older generations as they do not think like the younger generations do.
Their great danger for evangelism is they expect the younger generation to think and act just like they do. In other words, if we just wait the younger generation will "come to their senses". On the other hand, they have a point in that the emphasis on "experiences" and neglect of propositional truth, may led the younger generation to neglect what the Word is really calling us to do.
What is also true is the younger generations are reached with God's word in a different manner that when everyone had a modern or Christian worldview.
Good discussion! Keep it going.
Assssement for the blog:
Just remember for an A on the blog discussion you must post at least 5 comments each week for each assignment.
Tks
Nicholas and All:
You are very perceptive about the prayer that Christ prayed for unity as well as the different thinking between generations.
First, you will note that the Godhead is a "community" and unity of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--or Comforter. And, man was not created to be alone --it is not good for man to be alone. And, the church is certainly to be a community--not just a collection of individuals trying to find their own version of what they think the truth is. The theology of the Trinity being a community and man being man for community is a very important one.
Secondly, your perception of the difference in the way your elders view the culture and really the interpretation of the bible is very important. One responds to the elders from a "propositional" truth point of view--not a postmodern or relationship point of view. You ask such questions as "How did Paul respond to taking the gospel to the Jews and the Gentiles". Did Paul abandon his "Jewishness" with the Jews? Did he quote scripture to the Greeks? Did he parade his Jewishness to the Greeks? Also, one must address how much of a "pattern" is in the new testament worship. What are the essential elements of the "truth" as opposed to what we do by tradition.
But, one must be gentle when addressing issues like the above with older generations as they do not think like the younger generations do.
Their great danger for evangelism is they expect the younger generation to think and act just like they do. In other words, if we just wait the younger generation will "come to their senses". On the other hand, they have a point in that the emphasis on "experiences" and neglect of propositional truth, may led the younger generation to neglect what the Word is really calling us to do.
What is also true is the younger generations are reached with God's word in a different manner that when everyone had a modern or Christian worldview.
Good discussion! Keep it going.
iwould like to knoe more about the enlightment period to understand better modernism?
Leenette and Class:
It is good to ask about the Enlightenment Period. You might also call this the Age of Reason. Can anyone enlighten us on this period?? Why don't you Google "The Enlightenment" and see what you come up with. Then post a summary of what you found for everyone.
Tks
Aminee:
Regarding your question about postmoderns accepting a "lie" as the "truth". In reality, a true postmodern would not define statements as "lies" except as the community of which they are a part would define them. And, the philosopher would say there is no lie nor truth--just what you say
According to your question Professor about the young generation about reach God's word in the mdernism worldview
i think they might try to prove about the truth that there are exist or not on the other hand, some might not want to reach about it bcuz they already know the truth is there but they think that it doesnt help anything for their life or they are ok now so nothing much chang, their manner will be normal bcuz they are not excited about it
but there are two sides; some younger generation might want to know more and also try to discover more truth...about their manner,if they discover the truth i think they might try to show off what they have discovered (i might be wrong tho)
According to your comment with Aimee,
Professor, so the postmodernism will say the truth is not truth (right?) so how we can find the truth from them too
what actually is the "TRUTH" for them? they might not find it either..no lie but no truth!!! right? :)
Both the apostles Peter and Paul knew their audiences. As Paul says he became all things to all men. I guess in a sense we have to do the same thing without compromising the truth. What are the essential elements of the truth as opposed to what we do by tradition? Scriptures the truth anything outside of that comes from man and we know how men like their traditions.
Reading Nick's comments - It's interesting to listen to how 2 different generations interpret the same passage. After reading the passage myself I'm incline to see both sides of the coin here. And that's what bothers me - both views (generations) are polar opposites pretty much, where is that gonna leave the gospel in the future? And how are future believers going to be interpreting and teaching it? I'm scared for future generations.
Reading Jose's comment, I see that in Paul's becoming all things to all men he is confronting the issue that i brought up in my last post - about how many of us are individuals interacting in many communities besides the church communty. Paul is interacting with the truth as percieved by the gentiles, yet maintains his spiritual integrity by talking to them about Christ and challenging them about what they believe, just as he holds to the truth as held by the Jews and maintains his Spiritual integrity by making them think about what they believe about the messiah and Christianity...he's incorporating the Truth of Jesus CHrist into the truths held by both Jew and Gentile to bring them together in the truth of Jesus Christ...and I have to keep thinking about this before it makes much more sense - please add to this if you have any thoughts or ideas of your own about this!!!
Leenette and others,
Regarding to Leenette and according to the Wiki online, also from my limited understanding of english, The Age of Englightenment or the Age of reason or you can also call the age of the age of eighteenth century because it occurs in that period.
They believe that everything is based on reason or human understanding only and hope that it will provide the benefit basis beneficial that will affect their thought and life. Is is correct Professor?
Al,
I couldb't agree with you more you actually hit the nail on the head so to speak. It's kind of like role playing. Each community you participate in you become apart of that community but like you said you don't compromise your beliefs, faith or truth in the Lord. Paul was a master at this, if I could only understand the subjects well enough to know what I'm talking about and to I'd love to have a crack at evangelising the postmodernist
Jose, that's some interesting comments! I agree with you, I can see both sides in the passage as well. I guess with the Gospel message being maintained throughout future generations, we just have to trust that God in His infinite wisdom and power will enable the Gospel in its truth to persevere throughout time until Christ comes back and we all get to spend eternity with him (bring it on:).
I guess when you look at the early church and throughout the last 2000 years of history, the Gospel has been compromised many times (gnosticism, the rise of the Roman Catholic church, various cults etc) but it has still survived thus far. So I have no reason to doubt that the Gospel message will continue for the remainder of the world's existence.
All,
Great discussion and comments from those of you online.
Please encourage your fellow students to get online with the discussion. Not only is it educational, but it is required for the course.
Heloo everybody just checkin if my thing works.
hurray
It was interesting walking through to the supermarket the other day and seeing how independent our society is. everybody has their own world, their own ways, their own truths and their own opinions. It is interesting thinking about this just watching how many yuoung people just sit, stand or walk just listening to their ipods. this has contributed to the manifestation of such a cultural system of philophy... or is it the other way around; that this is the result of a different philosophy??? What do you think
Human philosophy may change and peoples "truths" may evolve but their is only one truth of this world: it came into being by work of God and His revelation is all that can explain anything of its enigma.
lol - i agree with you Jose! It'd be interesting to talk to a post-modernist teen or young adult and see what they believe about maintaining their beliefs and personal/copmmunity truths while participating in multiple community settings...and then compare it to how the gospel makes it a lot easier - you keep all the same values, beliefs and truths, you just apply it differently...maybe we should give it a crack together, eh?
And Cam, you thing is definitely working...so's mine, curiously enough! lol - My thought on how todays society is so independent is that so many peopel participlate in so many communioty settings that maybe they create their own set of truths that conform to many community truths, so that they can participate easily in society...it becomes a kind of individuality within the world community, which in a lot of ways is not so different to Modernism. WHat I mean by that is that an individual may hold a truth (eg. eggs are gross) within a family community that holds the same truth, but also hold that truth in another community where that truth does not exist...and so hold a sort of "thats true for you, but not for me" ideal.
On the note of Aminee's comment about truths and lies I wanted to note my own comment.
IT is such philosophical comments that many apologists pick at or look to to explain in defense of why this world suffers. Counter-attack: How do we know this world suffers? As Jose wil know this is one of the original subjects addressed by the 20th cent. intellectual giant C S Lewis in his book of Mere Christianity. What is this thing called the human conscience? Morality? Like anything, truth is something that can be philosophied and conceptualised but never denied, because there is such a thing as reality... and reality is exactly what we see, hear, smell, taste and feel; it is real. I hope that either answers your Christian or tears your mind to pieces to ask more questions. What is anybody else's opinion?
The Age of Enlightenment or The Enlightenment is a term used to describe a phase in Western philosophy and cultural life centered upon the eighteenth century, in which Reason was advocated as the primary source and basis of authority. The terminology Enlightenment or Age of Enlightenment does not represent a single movement or school of thought, for these philosophies were often mutually contradictory or divergent. The Enlightenment was less a set of ideas than it was a set of attitudes. At its core was a critical questioning of traditional institutions, customs, and morals. Some classifications of this period also include the late 17th century, which is typically known as the Age of Reason or Age of Rationalism. The Enlightenment occupies a central role in the justification for the movement known as modernism.
also according to britannica enlightenment means:
- a European intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries in which ideas concerning God, reason, nature, and man were synthesized into a worldview that gained wide assent and that instigated revolutionary developments in art, philosophy, and politics. Central to Enlightenment thought were the use and the celebration of reason, the power by which man understands the universe and improves his own condition. The goals of rational man were considered to be knowledge, freedom, and happiness.
in the philippines you just cant hear this post modernism or age of reasoning being used by people simply because most of them does not really care of what it really means. This is also the first time i've encountered this words that is why I am also confused at first, but as we go along with our discussion and with the help of reading in advance, i can now picture out what we are talking about here. If i were to picture out the place where I came from (philippines) people are much concern of political issues and financial issues. People now a days are being influence by their surroundings and with whats happening to other countries as well. Like for instance the oil price and the conversion of money. Most of small countries were dependent to big countries for their needs and isnt it sad to realize knowing that the truth is, they just cant live without the help of the others. most of the people now a days, forgot that God is the way, the truth and the life.
Some people now, did not believe that there is a God because they try to connect and blame the bad or negative things in their life to God. I guess, people now a days are more selfish than before. Their greed and their hunger for knowledge had overcome them. For them the truth will always be connected to evidence. the truth will always be made for man by man. Am I making sense here?
to cam's question regarding human conscience:
For me, conscience is not the voice of God but rather it is the gift of God for if we follow the urgings of this gift from God, we will know happiness, have peace of mind, and experience a life rich with meaning .it is the awareness of morality or the difference between right and wrong, as well as the awareness of perfection. Our conscience directs us to avoid wrongdoing and to carry out acts of goodness. It also inspires excellence, for it is an urge to become more godlike. For God is righteous, then we should also be righteous.
thank you Leenette
You answered my questions Leenette that i was going to ask on whether postmodernism has had as much of an effect on eastern culture as it has in western
As far as this impacts the way we as Christians need to approach our evangelism, I think we need to see that, generally speaking, the mode of doorknocking is not the most successful form of evangelism. To truly make room for the implanting of the seed of faith, of revelation, one needs to get alongside another quietly even sneakishly (?) introduce the idea into their minds
just checking this is working
To profsser:
I have been having so much trouble with this blog i sent two comments last night and they are not showing. does this mean i have to blog 2 more to make up for there lost ??
ok first is that there is alot of moderst throght going on here and secondly because i see myself as more post-morden im having trouble getting peoples point of view but im trying to undrstaind. To cam is it really reality to have sensen or it this just waht your reason from your mind inregards to your moderst view how do we know if your mind is playing tricks on you and thinks something so then it must be , may be not there at all??
Think of De ja Vu - its a moment when your mind warps and your sense of reality flies out the window, if even for a second. Can you rely on your senses when that happens?
to:Aimee and jose, in regards to your comment on evanglising to a non-christian youth or adult with a postmoderst world view, the one peace of advise that i will give you and wished someone had given to me before i evenglised. Is that you need to go out of the "chruch buble" and put your self into a postmaodern communitey, this might be a sport or a clup or something like that so that you have a leveal groud to work on and are part of there community in stead of outside trying to impose your world view on them and then leave. In doing this you also need to take small steps to gain there trust but after this i have found for myself they will be open to hereing what you have to share with them, dont think that ther not interseted one thing i have found and i believe my self as more of a postmoderness is that they think of themselfs as spiritual , but not relegiouse. that word bring negitive views with it and will turn them off. i hope this helps, what do you think??
This is what i think: The attitude of the post-modernists "whatever" whether it be the attitude of a community, or the attitude of the individual, is a cop out
This is how I think we need to approach the Gospel: We need to teach that there is a God and the Bible is his word. We need to do this with gentleness and honesty. We need to show our lives as living for God. We need to show and explore Christians have faults ans still make mistkes.
I believe some people are scared to become a christian or come to God, because they feel they can't measure up to be a christian. Christians in the past have given out the wrong perception of a christian, that is they are perfect and don't sin. We need to be honest that we will be sinning for the rest of our lives. That we need God's help, God's saving grace.
Hey Terry,
without shooting me as a substitute, can i ask you to elaborate on your comment of the answer "whatever" as being a cop out. Cheers brother.
Nick: your right God's seen us through this far we just have to trust and leave it in His capable hands.
Al: Love your comments, maybe we could get together - 2 heads are better than one.
Amy: I understand your comments about getting out into the community that is outside the church but to be honest thats where I actually come from. My life in the church has only happened since being here at Bible college and when I return to Masterton I'll be back into the "world scene" the sports clubs, school committees, gym scene and trying to further develop my already established relationships with people there. I value your opinion and appreciate your advice especially that of people being spirtiual and not using the word "religious" as your right it does put people off.
It seems that we've all come to the same conclusions that in order to evangelize we need to have relationships and I'm talking sincere meaningful relationships this of course takes time. That's why this generations so hard to crack into their nuts are so hard, they protect and shield themselves from I guess what they think will hurt them - people.
Ter: Brave comments and I agree with them. I wonder if that's because of our modernistic world views :) You sound like an Old Testament prophet, say it like it is. And if people don't like it tough! They were called by God to say this is the way it is. It comes straight from God read it it's there in black and white (No Grey):) The 'whatever' comment to me is definitely people living in denial. And who can blame people for being scared of becoming a Christian we know first hand that its hard work. I can only speak for myself when I say the hardest thing I've ever done in life and am still trying to do everyday is to be like Christ.
Wow, there are a lot of comments and too many questions in one article.
Professor, is it better to put another subject with another question? it's like one question for one subject. Just an idea.
Hi every one
Finnaly manage to work out how it works. It has been very interesting for me coming from africa and although we do live in a modern world there there is a great part of the population who do not.To that part of the population everything runs around what the witch docter says when he conselts the spirit world and when all goes wrong the witch docter is the first to be consulted.Having said that I dod not believe they are in the post morderm world yet and as most do not have electricity TV or other anti-social thingsw but rather gather around the fire at night and sing songs and tell storys
To Cam:
Great observation of the young people walking around with their iPods. Note that not only are they listening, but they are listening to the "same" music and words. Also, most are texting. So... they are "connected". Doesn't this desire and actual process of being "connected" consitute a community?
On the comment of human philosophy: Yes, everything came into being by God. But, note that Paul in his discourse in Athens, does not state this UNTIl he has connected with the Athenians with their own worldview BEFORE he starts elucidating the Christian worldview.
To Amiee: Good suggestion about talking directly to a postmodern teen. Why dont you do this while you are taking this class. Just be sure it is someone who is not connected at all with an existing church.
Also: As in the Eastern cultures postmoderns can keep separate conflicting ideas and believe both to be applicable to them. That is, they will pick and chose what "works for them" from communities that have entirely different ideas about doctrine or propositional truth. Therefore you may find one going to one group (or "church" )for reaching out to the environment, one for serving the poor, another for bible study, another for fellowship, etc.
So.... your comment on individuals holding to "different truths" from different communities is certainly valid.
To Cam: On your comment about truth being related to what the sense can detect. That is exactly the definition of "truth" for the modern philosophers. It is also why they denied that God exists and that "religion" be related to the individual and not part of the body politic.
Postmoderns deny that this is correct. They ( the philosohers that is ) would hold that the senses define "truth".
To Leenette:
Great! You found out for yourself what the Age of Enlightenment was. It was as you said, also the Age of Reason. This also became the single word that most clearly defines the modern philosophy: Reason.
Also regarding the comment on "the truth will always be connected to evidence" and "the truth will always be made for man by man":
But consider the evidence you discussed was the colletive perception of things e.g. finances. Also isnt man by man just a statement of what the community of "man" decides what is right and true for "man" the individual. This is very postmodern view. Good comments and observations
To Cam: Your observations regarding how to evangelise in the postmodern world are so true. Door knocking really only works well with everyone having a Christian worldview or at least a modern one. You do need to "get alongside another quietly". However, I would take exception to the part about "quietly and sneakishly". One should have a genuine interest in another as a individual--whether they are interested in the Christian worldview or not. After all "God so loved "the world" ".... each sinner in the world whether they accept him or not.
If you truly what a real relationship with the individual then a time will come for you to share what God has done for you with that individual. .
To Amy:
Yes, Amy I am afraid I can only read blogs that are posted.
Regarding your question to Cam: The postmodern philosopher would say you cannot distinguish whether your mind is playing tricks on you or not. It would be the language you chose to use that determines the reality for you.
To Amy G Regarding comments on "getting out of the church bubble". YOU ARE SO VERY, VERY RIGHT. You are so correct as they think of themselves "as very spiritual but not religious" By religious most would mean not connected or wanting to be connected with any established church. The word "church" also would "turn them off".
To Terry:
Two comments-- you are correct in that we need to present the gospel with gentleness and honesty. However, the rffective approach for "gentleness and honesty" would be totally different for a person with a Christian worldview ( someone who is a believer, but perhaps holds to doctrinal error), the modern who approaches thing from reason, or the postmodern who approaches things from relationships. Paul had different approaches for Jewish and Greek audiences
Second-- You are so right about the attitude many "churched" people have projected in the past. Confessing this wrong attitude is something that we must be willing to do if we are to appear authenic ( we do what we say) to postmoderns.
To Jose: It fabulous that you are already out in the "world scene". There is actually a name for evangelising in those places. It is called meeting people in the "third places". The first place is in the home, the second place is at work, the third places are those places where people naturally congregate to socialize or met for common interest.
You have "hit the nail on the head" to use an American expression. The key to evangelism for postmodern is to use your words to develop sincere meaningful relationships". And, yes, that takes time.
To Eddie: Well, this is a discussion. And, discussions cannot be scripted. So, the question or question I ask are to stimulate discussion as these have. Discussions take on their own direction. So, please think of this as sitting around and discussion the various concepts----not as a specific question to get a "right answer" for a grade. Discussions are not like that. I truly believe discussions and interactions are where more learning takes place.
To Paul: The postmodern worldview has little to do with whether one's culture has the modern techonlogy. It has to do with how one thinks. For example:
1) Is their a god or are there multiple Gods?
2) How is truth determined for that society?
3) What is their view of man?
4) What is their view of what happens when man dies?
5) What is the view of the self?
6) What determines what is real?
7) What determines what is true?\
8) What is the purpose of man?
9)How are ethics and morals determined.
I am sure everyone would be interested how those in your society would answer the above questions. Pershaps you could give us a brief answer to them.
In Africa their is no God as such just a spiritual world to which the the witch docter has direct line to. The witch docter is seen as the master of truth if there is disbute between people it is taken to the witch docter to conselt the spiritual world for the answer or to deturman who is lieing. Thier view of man is just one of us passing though to the spiritual world. When the westerners came to Africa they where originaly considered as Gods as they could heal where the witch docter could not, also the differant skin colour was differant.Today however the witchdocter still stands strong, moder medicne is tried but when all fails its back to the witch docter. Thier view of self is very low as they struggle though life sometimes failing to have enough money to supply food for the family from day to day with no thought for tomorrow. Prime example of this is the case of some locals being given some land to grow crops to which they did succsefully, had a bumper crop, went out and bought a motor bike to which they wanted and needed but then failed to grow anything else, when asked why the responce was we have what we wanted why go out and plant again, resulting in mass starvation in two years. The first year everything goes fine the next there is a drought and therefore no food. The perpose of man would be to please the spiritual world.As long as the spirits are pleased all will go well with everything. I am talking about a big part of the population here however there is others who have turned to christ, moved to towns, have modern things such as electricity and although their world has not got to the stage I find the modern world to be in, one of anti socialism and things being more cost afective to remain at home and not mingle with others ,in Africa the way is to get to friends houses, to talk to one another in person, much more of a personnal relationship.
Thinking about it a bit more, wetern culture has influenced the way of thinking in the towns mostly. With the situtuation being the way it is in Zimbabwe at the moment with masses starving and a corrupt goverment running things I can only imagine what the average person is thinking. You mentioned ealier to me profesor Nored that The postmodern worldview has little to do with whether one's culture has the modern techonlogy. It has to do with how one thinks, well yes it does but ones culture also has to do with how one thinks and modern techonlogy also changes how one thinks. If You did not have electricity and therefore everything that goes with that you would have no comunications you would not know what the world thinks your only form of transport would be foot mostly and you would not be influenced by TV programs in any way. Your only form of establishing anything would be from anyone who is seen to have abnormal powers and nothing would be able to tell them otherwise. So in ones culture and statue in life can change ones views and control how one thinks of life and who is in control
Paul,
Thank you for those insights. The postmodern philosopher would say this is a culture where the "truth" is determined by the language of the witchdoctor who therefore has "power" over others.
The actual worldview you describe is somewhat similar to those of Western postmodern in the following aspects:
1) It is very "spiritually" oriented. This is not the spirituality of the bible, but neither is that of our western postmoderns
2) The view of man or the person is low. That is, man cannot perfect himself as in the modern world.
3) "Truth" is somewhat relative. That is, it is ultimately determined by their own witchdoctor.
and Finally, the most important part--
4) You reach people through relationships as opposed to reaching them with "propositional truth".
Tks for the insights.
Going back to what i was saying earlier that the African has little self view in a time of great poverty he would though his child infront of a on comming car to be killed or cirtainly mamed for life with a view that the driver would rather pay the perant to not report the matter and so avoid going to prison and the mentaility behind that is that the parent can always have another child but can not have more livestock. Value of human life is very littte.
yes when you get down to the very basics I gess not much has change since Jesus time.
Hi Guys , i just want to say i am impressed with the discussion going on. i think i have learnt more in reading your findings and thoughts that what i learnt when i was in class a few years back. since Professor Nored alowed others to make comments i thought i would. i like what you said Terry "We need to teach that there is a God and the Bible is his word. We need to do this with gentleness and honesty. We need to show our lives as living for God." The only comment i would make is that i think that we need to live our lives as living for christ. i know they are more or less the same but to the postmodern world God can be who-ever, or your words whatever they want him to be. this can lead to spritual exploration which i believe fits into postmodernism. Christ i believe is easier to explain in our lives.
this brings a question... with postmodernism (PM)if there are no absolute truths in what people say, what about truth in what they do? can PM deny the truth in which one lives? this is fun i think i might re enroll in the college
LOL - if you re-enrolled rog, I'm not sure the rest of us would survive, but at least then you can join us in pulling pranks, instead of having them pulled on you (-: I have to agree when you say the we need to live Christ - one of the Post-modern views is that if you believe a certain truth, you live that truth not only in word, but in every facet of your life - you let it consume you and be apart of who you are. Interestingly, isn't that what the transforming power of God's love and the Holy Spirit is supposed to do in Christians? We should let God work in us and consume our lives totally - we'd be a lot more in touch with the Post-modern worldview!!
hey guys,
this blog is really a success!
hurray! i guess we can all get an A++++ in our final grade.....
To terry, the postmordest person would not view ther world view or way of life as a cop out, more a choice that they have made because it goes with the trend that the community around them goes with, with in this communinty there is alot of pear pusher to be the same and to keep in the community and do the same so for one to go against the grain they need to find another community that believe the same truth and join there community that is why alot of mostmoden people just go with the flow and that its that there truth is right for them and might not be right for another. but this is ok as long as they keep it to themselves once you start trying to change there view this is rude and wrong in there eyes and frowned apone. if one who was in the community starts to believe that there is a GOD and one truth he genually becomes outsider. thats what i think anyway.
i find De Ja VU really funny sometimes and other times it alittle trippy and start to think about creaton and how God exists and can see me, i use to think he could see me as if i was in adolls house or like the truman show where everything is just set up for us like clock work but i have grown from that throght know, i believe that each day is a new day and differnt and never the same, it is histoy in the making. Think of De ja Vu - is one of those thing were your mind notices similartiy and slows things down bbecause of this and because of this the eyes respond with a question and seek to find it in the mind leaving the question in youe mind has this happened before or is it just me ??
From the reading that i have read i did not understand much because its different culture and like Annie said we never know about modernism and postmodernism
but one thing that i knew the things are around totally changed very fast; for examble internet, cell phone and so forth because of the growing of environment!
To Professor,
from your comment with Paul, that mean postmodernism dealt with the people's ideas, they would change the idea because of the changing the environment around the world.
it will be still going to change, right? when it will be end? because people change the idea alot...and is it possible that the idea will be back to the beginning?
I guess we reach people with truth, the truth and the fact that we live in our world for christ and the way to make the truth in them is that by the way we act for God. We live like Christ and we act like Christ and that way will change their mind and then we can reach the people easily.
I think this blog has been real interesting. But Rog PLEASE don't re-enrol in the college :). Right now I'm thinking about my life, and since I've been at Bible College my life has been my studies, church and relationships. Sadly, almost all of my time since being in NZ has been with other Christians. I don't have any close friends that aren't Christians here. I'm realising that right now I'm not a very good example of someone who is good at reaching out into a post-modern world. I need to make sure that I spend time and find opportunities to 'get alongside others' and get to know new people better. I need to give people an opportunity to show that I care about them and their welfare so that I can get new opportunities to share the Gospel with them. This is a new challenge that I'm going to take up.
Hey guys,
Great comments! Keep up the good conversation. If we want postmodern people to buy into "our truth" (which we know and believe is "the truth"), then we have a great opportunity. We need to live authentic, genuine lives. This will speak loudly and clearly to postmoderns. Remember what St. Francis of Assisi said: "Preach the gospel always. When necessary, use words." Cheers.
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