We have been examining the effect of the postmodern worldview on our culture as well as how we should address these attitudes. And, you were each assigned specific sections in "They Like Jesus, but Not the Church" . Discuss in your blog the following questions/issues ( or others relating to this those of you might pose).
1. What do you think causes the unchurched to like Jesus but not the church?
2. What specific actions should we take individually and/or as "the church" to change this attitude.?
3. Out of all the negative attitudes that the unchurched think Christians have, which one is the most destructive to postmoderns accepting the gospel? What should we do about it?
4. This question relates to generational attitudes towards "church": Do you think we should or should not adopt those things postmoderns view as needed when "doing church". If so, when and why or if not why not?
Note: You do not have to answer every question posed. But, you do have to particpate in the discussion that is ongoing on the blog.
Tks
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93 comments:
can you make the questions easlier to understand? i dont understand those... sorry :(
to annie,
the unchurch signifies those people who believes or recognize jesus but they do not accept the ways or the system itself.you need to give reasons why they do not recognize it.
Annie,
I will be happy to try to clarify the questions. But, you need to tell me which question and which words you are having trouble understanding
Leenette,
You are correct in that many of the "unchurched" believe in Jesus. That is true of those discussed in the book "They Like Jesus, but not the Church" But the "unchurched" also include those who have no faith or belief in Jesus at all. Many are, however, very "spiritual".
There are a number of answers to this first question. First of all Jesus is perfect and you don’t have to worry about personal conflict with him down here. If he contradicts your thoughts just ignore him. This cannot be done with hypocritical Christians! There’s also no debating with Christ as he is always right. One’s relationship with Jesus is personal and you don’t have to worry about anyone but yourself and Jesus, and while you give Christ his due honour and praise you do not have to supply anything for him as he needs nothing from anybody. We do however need to help out fellow Christians. Christians will often, for men anyway, have the appearance or stereotype of being “pussies.” Yeah, there are numerous reasons.
All we can really do to help this is to reflect the teachings and actions of Christ. Pray and use wisdom to exploit and/or discern whatever opportunity or situation is put forward to us. We must follow through with our actions when we say that Christ is central in our lives.
My personal thought is probably that arrogance and exclusiveness is probably the worst attitude perceived by non-Christians. Centripetal or centrifugal? We need to evangelise and make known that the word of God is open to all in this world. It is not reserved for a few ‘elect’ or ‘predestined’ people but God’s will is for all to have it. Christians need to demonstrate the character of God in the way that they live their lives.
To Cam: Help me understand your first comment in response the first question. Are you saying the unchurched has the attitudes you are depict about Jesus or that Christians have these attitudes?
To Cam: The second two comments are excellent observations. In regard to displaying "arrogance and exclusiveness"---in what ways do Christians act or say things that would lead the unchurched to believe this?
According the question number what do you think that the unchurch like Jesus but not the church?
I think they do not like the church because of the way most people act to them. It seems like, it does not matter when we became a christian but we still act the same. We are saying that we have faith in Jesus but we do not act like Jesus and we dont put it into practice then our faith is dead. They like Jesus because Jesus is different from us but we are not different from them in their eyes and i think that is why they don't like the church because the church is the same, no different like Jesus.
To Eddie:
Good observation. What are the specific actions or things we should do to change this perception?
Jesus was different - "real" and lets give humans beings a bit of credit most people can discern for themsevles whether your a fake or not. Like we discussed in class postmodernists are searching for the "true relationships" the ones that make them feel like they belong. Actually, isn't that what we all crave? The Church aren't delivering that, why? There's a whole lot of answers to that one - and it could open up a nasty can of worms. I remember a friend of mine (worldly friend) telling me why she didn't like Christians. She reckons we are too judgmental she said we don't even have to say a word - our responses are pretty obvious in our actions.
So what does that tell you? Your so right Cam. We can't talk the talk anymore. We have to walk the walk. Actions speak louder than words and obviously the church are being seen as not doing that to the degree that outsiders believe we should be. My opinion is we have to do what Jesus did - we're saying what he said that's the easy part - doing everything he did is the key! Then they'll know we are Christians.
To Jose:
Good comments. So...what in your opinion are the specific things that Jesus did that we should be doing ( are apparently aren't doing )?
When we invite non Christians to attend a prayer meeting or a Christian fellowship, they would instantly say no because they say that Christians like us are too formal and serious. They said that we took every word in the bible too seriously and literally. They said that we often connect everything that is happening to the bible. They said that we don’t know how to loosen up a little bit and that we are too perfect in the eyes of God. I think that we need to reach out to them and let them know that we are also human beings just like them. We are not perfect and we also made mistakes. That we can also relate to them and that we are not judgemental. I think the hardest part is convincing people who does not want to listen at all. It’s like their minds were already made up not to accept you. Attitude wise, we need to put into action what we have learnt. We need to show to them that we really do mean every word that we say. Acceptance is what we seek from them, but we also have to be willing to accept them also as a person.
To Leenette:
Very good thoughts. What specific actions should we take to "show them we mean every word we say"? That is, what are the practical things we must with individuals and in the community to show them (by actions, words) their attitudes toward us are not correct?
Hi Guys, i think that the unchurched dont like church as they look at the church as a organisation or structure. when they see this orginasion they see all the bad things, ie. Hypocrisy, the Radicals and cover ups of the sinful things that have happened under the roofs of churches in the passed. the reason Jesus is more accepted is like Jose said "He is different". people can relate to a good person and you never hear of Jesus doing anything wrong. if you ask a non churched person to name the things Jesus did wrong they wouldent be able to tell you any. so it would be easer for them to accept a person who did good rather than a church that has a very bad history line.
so how do you change this?? I personally dont admitt to being a christian any more when someone asks. if i do then that places me in that structure. what i say to people is not so much a christian but i like to think of my self as a follower of Christ, this is i feel one way to change peoples perception about the church as they hopfully can see by your actions that you can be part of a group of people who follow christ but not fall under the perception of what church going people are or can be.
To Roger:
Good thoughts. My one suggestion would be to say you are a follower of Jesus if you wish to connect using their language. Postmoderns usually do not use Christ very much, but do use Jesus.
To Roger and All:
Another suggestion when talking to the unchurched when they bring us all of the wrong things that have been done in the name of the church as an institution or in history is the following: Freely admit that these things were committed and were wrong. That also is true when they say Christians are too judgmental. Admit that some are. That admission goes a long way to letting them see you are different
I was thinking about this today, and I was thinking that some of the reason why Christians are perceived as arrogant by non Christians might be because many are scared to reach out to those that don't know God for various reasons (fear of rejection, laziness, too busy etc). For this reason many Christians would only keep company with other Christians, and therefore come across as arrogant or 'holier than thou' to those outside the faith.
I just wanted to share, after saying how I didn't have any close friends that weren't Christians in NZ, I met some people this week from Tauranga that aren't Christians and they came with me to church on Sunday. After church they invited me to their place and they taught me how to play chess. Then they were asking me heaps of questions about God, Jesus, church, the Bible, what it means to become a Christian etc. I got the chance to share my faith and what God has done in my life. I also shared some of my background and my struggles, and got the opportunity to pray for them. I'm going to keep trying to form a friendship with them and grow this, and Lord willing will get more opportunities to share the Gospel with them. I was on such a high when I left their place! I'm so grateful to God for allowing me this opportunity.
By the way professor, what you've had to teach us and the readings we've been doing this week helped me SO much when talking with them. Thank you for all you're sharing with us.
It's interesting reading everyones comments. Something that crossed my mind as to why the unchurched don't like the churched could be due to the role the media have played in portraying the church to be a bunch of hypocrites. Don't get me wrong I'm not playing the blame game I'm looking at reason so we can hopefully find solutions. This one would be a hard one to crack. Ther's an old saying "One bad apple can spoil the whole darn lot" Well thats exactly what happens when the media get a hold of it. I recall a Christian that was a leader of a political party here in NZ an d he got caught doing unseemly things to children. One man did this evil but the media had a field day with it and made it sound like all Christians behave in this manner. We know thats not true but what can you do to combat the media?
In terms of actions the church needs to take to change this attitude, we need to make changes to become more relevant to the culture. I think that we've been too busy getting caught up in church and how to do 'church', and whether or not different aspects of our worship service are Scriptural. In the meantime, people are longing for real and authentic relationships with people who care for them and they're missing out on hearing the good news of Jesus Christ. I believe we need to make each other aware of the need to reach out and become friends with others. We need to rethink our priorities, and be willing to devote more of our energy towards people and less towards our traditions and structures if that makes sense.
Professor,
I can only go off my own experience in the churches I have been involved in and that's not many. Jesus wasn't false in his love for people - we can be! Jesus wasn't selfish - we are, even if we won't admit it. We try not to be but we're only human. That's just an example.
Nick and all:
1. I think you are right that we appear arrogant if we only associate with Christians and do not reach out to non Christians
2.It is great you met and are going to be with some non Christians! I'm so glad you found our discussions helpful
3. You are so right about rethinking our priorities. We have spent most of our time on "worship" issues in general and not taken time for those who need Jesus. In the modern world we spent most all of our time on structures, patterns and forms. In this postmodern age ( as well as the previous modern one) we must devote time to forming meaningful relationships.
I believe that unchurch people dont like the chruch for some of the reasons that i dont really like the idear of chruch. It closes your mind to be open in your opinon to other poss. It also is so set in its ways that it makes me anyways get very bord because of such routine and also there is no interaction with the crowd which is why alot of pentercostel chruches seem like they have being number and some do but alot just come because its something to do and its not too "chruchy". Also the word religiouse is stuck on the understainding of Church and alot of unchruch view is that this is harmful to the cosmose and in return will have no part in this also it has conetctions to wars and sufferning in the world and unjustices. So thats what i think anyways, however throuhgt time and study and revelation of what chruch is im not so against the "Church".
To Jose and all:
The media: I believe you are right in perceiving the media has a negative impact on how Christians are viewed. Of course, Christians who behave like the one you indicated help foster that attitude. Perhaps we should practice I Peter 2:12 this would not be a problem. What does everyone think that "good deeds" actually consist of today?
Being selfish: Would "good deeds" help this also?
Amy G: Those are very typical reactions to "church" by many. What do you think one needs to do to change those opinions?
I think that those who do not attend church like Jesus more than teh church because Jesus was an example of someone who did good things for others and lived what he believed (both things that are Post-Modern views). The church to them seems to be more of an example of people who say what they believe, but live like the don't...hypocrites really, which is very much frowned upon by the younger generations. If you say something, you do it too.
One thing we could do is act as we speak. We say we love all people, so accept homosexuals as they are (i don't mean condone their action). I have aclose friend who is a lesbian. She asked me once what I believe about homosexuality - and I told her that I see the practice of homosexuality as a sin, but the person is still a person and just as desrving of love. This is just an example, but I reckon the more we behave what we believe, the more christ-like we become, which is one of the goals of christianity.
I think the most destructive perception of the church is that we are hypocritical, homophobic, unloving, sexist and intolerant. I think this is most destructive because in a lot of cases its true. The church in general needs to work on improving this attitude a lot because its not what Christ called us to be and it's not what the world should be thinking of us. Many of us are not like that, and this view hurts those not like that. Its sad that the few who are "rotten eggs" stink up the rest of us in teh eyes of the world.
I agree that we need to be more flexible, and perhaps mix things up a little. And I don't mean putting the Lord Supper before the Sermon (though that might be too much of a change for some older folks!) I mean making some sundays interactive (letting the church know before hand), or perhaps holding the lords supper as a whole passover type feast (I have seen this done before to great effect). And why not? It'd be more interesting, the Word would still be preached in power and people can be affected by the experience of it all.
Sorry am I missing something. Nick you spoke of getting out and making non Christian friends is this something new to you no offense but I thought this is what the whole message of the Bible was about outreaching not inreaching. Maybe its because I don't have a Christian background or wasn't bought up in the church. But you guys at college and church are the only Christians I know. Everyone else in my life are unbelievers. Yeah some people want to know about Christ you just have to be careful how you approach them, its best to let them come to you.
according to your question,professor.
i think the people (unchurch) do not want to be committed in the church and also they might have the wrong attitude of the church that's why they do not want to be a part of the church.
we should help to change their attitude of the church that we should be a good example to them in the good way..we should be with them not like them but make the relationship with them..
in Cam's third comment,
it is very interesting because we should focus on the word of God and open it to the world. God's will is for all...totally agree Cam!!
Jose's first comment,
according to the postmodernism view tries to find the true relationship no matter what we said they might have the arguement on it..we should open their mind to see the community in the different perspective. I agree Jose, my friends dont like when i start to talk to them about Christ, they told me to be quiet but like you said we can do what we can do...(Jose, you told me tonight about 1 Corin 3:6ff "I planted the seed. Apollos watered the palnt, but it was God who made the palnt grow. i gree)
we should do what Jesus tells us to do in Matthew 28:18-20, we all know about it but how we will make it happen...i remembered that we talked in class, we could not bring them to our club , so we should go to their clubs...but be like them though, but bring them back to our club!!
Accoring to Aimee Comment (lastest one)
i agree that we should be more flexible with the things that we have been doing but we should not lose our focus that is God and His word. sometimes i feel like we should do more activities that we could reach out the unchurch to the church...
we should try all the ways that we think it will work to change their attitude to the chruch...they alreay look at us in not a good way anyways so we should try our best to let them to know about the church...umm another thing, we alwys think like we are better than them or a good person but we are not like that we all inclding them are God's children and God opens His arms to hold us back...he is waiting for them to come back to him..do not put into the judgement tho...
to prof,
I think we need to show more compassion and love to others and by doing that they will eventually realize that we really mean what we say. Jesus show love and compassion to all and treated everyone as equal. but we cant just do that overnight, i mean we have to do it constantly.To those people who may in some way had a bad experience to the church, I guess we have to let them understand the law that the church follows. Lets face it, we cant please everybody. There will always be somone who will contradict to the church.I think that we just have to respect one another.i agree with cam and jose that we cant just talk and talk, we also have to show them or put into action the things that we want them to know.
follow up:
we also need to humble ourselves to those people whom we have in someway, hurt them for some reason. Acknowledging that we are not perfect is not a loss to us or to the church.
and for those people who do not believe in christ jesus, well i feel so sorry for them.They just dont know what they're missing in their life. I guess prayer is still the best thing that i can do for them. the power of prayer is so powerful that it can also help them in some way realize how important christ is. as an individual, i guess by sharing to them how God move me spiritually, will help them understand why i choose to be a christian. how i can have the strength to go on in my life in spite of all the problems that i've been through. I guess that the best possible example i can give to them, my own experience.
Having read some of the comments and waited it I had done the "they like Jesus but not the church reading" It became very apparent to me that as we become christians we have non christain friend to which we still socialise with and hang with but as we get more involed with the church we slowly stop those relationship and work on the new one with christians. In the beginging we share with our close friend what is happening to us but as we get new christian friends that unerstand and help us to grow we tend to spend more time with them slowly resulting in us only doeing things with other chirstians and in so forming almost a christian club with T shirts and fish stickers for the cars etc.before we know it all our friends are in the church and all our time is consumed orgaising it. Hence the need to refocus and start to get out to the people who need saveing come in.
To add to the last comment people like Jesus not christians for this reason, Jesus is great, christains have almost got to the point that they are in this exlusive club and so sorry for all those who are not in it, look at all the things they do wrong!Well if we stop feeling sorry for them and stop looking and get out there and do what we can to intoduce Jesus to these people to develope friend and build relationships we would maybe get a differant oout look from non christians
I think we as individual should make an effort to build relationships with non christians as well as our brothers in christ, to be truly genuine in what we say and do and relate our experiances to others and if we can achive this the church will grow, after all we are the church and if we are as individuals including non christians then the church would be doing the same thing.
To question 3 I had a friend who I was trying to introduce to Jesus who was quite happey to listen to me answer all the questions given to me but at the end of the day the stumbling block was that this person did not like, and understand that as a christian you where either in or out. As a chirstian you could not be happey that someone else had a differant piont of view and therefore felt a need to introduce them to christ. I felt to compermise on this issue would in effect lose Christ and therefore I did not know what to do about it.
to question 4 I believe with out losing the fundementials of church we should adopt those things postmodernsview as needed when doing church because it is not the healthy that need saving but the non christian and in order to do that efectively the non christian needs to feel welcomed and at home in the church and by church members . When non christians come to a church first impresions make a big differance.
many people have asked me about what I am studying and then I said "bible" then they would say "so are you a religion person?" I think that is how they feel about christian, we are just the a religion people IF we don't response to them correctly. For instance; I would say "I am a follower of Jesus Christ" and simply use the name of Jesus Christ they they like this name with the church, tell them how Jesus involves with the church, something like that and that might change their attitude.
oh by the way, most of people know and like who Jesus Christ is but they do not like the church, it is because sometimes they do not know how the church is like because many never come to the church so why don't we ask them to come then it might change their attitude.
Sorr Professor, I'm not 100% sure what you were asking for. But I will elaborate on the point i think you might be pointing to:
Non-Christians can look to the Bible, and look to their moral conscience and know if something is 'righgt,' or if something is 'wrong.' The can choose to accept their conscience and in doing so change their actions and/or thoughts, or they can dismiss it entirely. Non-Christians can get frustated though becauise it is not so easy to push away consciences that are living... Christians, who in judging are labelled as hypocrites.
I hope this answers your qusestion.
There is a lot of clickiness in the church today. There arer two primary reasons: 1) we can identify with them; we have something in common. 2) It is a safe haven being around brothers and sisters, and we don't have to worry about being bullied.
Lac of evangelism can also tarnish the reputation of Christianity as not being a 'club,' but as being a religion.
To Amiee and All:
Excellent observations and thoughts both on how others view us and the need for flexibility in worship. We experienced one of the most meaningful services and Lord's Supper when our minister took us through all of the various steps of the Passover feast but with blessing of bread and wine as the Lord probably did it. Very meaningful.
Hey I was talking with Brooke and thinking today about the fact that many people in the post modern world seem to be anti-organisation or anti-establishment and that is a reason why they view the church in a negative manner. I was thinking about how many churches of Christ including Otumoetai have elders and deacons. But many people in the post-modern world seem to view this negatively. Does this mean that we should rethink how we do leadership or at least the names we have for our leaders in the church? I believe that good leadership is important for the church (or any organisation for that matter), but perhaps we could rethink how we go about how we do leadership. I'm thinking in terms of official titles, who leads, how they lead, qualifications of a leader, leadership styles, personalities and gifts etc. I hope this makes sense, it's a big question to ask but I'd love to know your thoughts.
To Jose and All:
Jose, you are somewhat fortunate that you have friends that are not Christians as that gives you opportunity. So many of us when we become Christians only wish to associate and be around Christians. This is quite natural, but does not fulfill the command to GO. Of course our actions should change when we are Christians to "good works" around non Christians rather than participating in unChristian activities.
To Annie and All:
I agree that many in the church lack commitment. However, I would suggest part of the this is the leadership (ministers, elders, teachers) have unwittingly given the impression that the commitment we should have is to the "church"--coming to services, taking care of our members, etc. Therefore, there is little emphasis on ALL members committed to Christ and reaching out to un-Christians.
You are so right in that we "should be with them, but not like them" That is the only way a relationship can be developed--
On talking to friends about Christ:
You are right in that the direct approach many times causes resentment. We will be talking in class about how to approach people in a different ways.
On keeping to the Word: Yes, we should not lose focus on Jesus. We must learn how to engage the culture without adopting the destructive attributes of the culture.
To Leenette and All:
You are so right that we need to show compassion and love. But both of these require action. In fact on definition of agage love is: "an act of the will to take right action towards others'
And we should be humble about our own mistakes. But, we cant please everybody.
To Paul and All:
What you indicate about our slowly disassociating from all non Christian to be with Christians--quite natural by the way---is so true. It therefore, take an "act of the will" to place ourselves where we can "do good deeds" and "let our light shine".
Your other comments on church are so true. But......we have to remember that in many of our congregations that we have the majority who only know the modern mindset and are very uncomfortable in changes at worship service. We must not cause dis unity either. That said both study of what the bible reallys says plus meeting the unchurched in what we will call "third places ( I will define in class) will let us minister to all.
To eddie: On why people may not like "church". You may be right that the unchurced really do not know what the church is about because they do not come. On the other hand, they see how "churhed" people act and do not wish to therefore be a part of "church"
To Nick and All:
Your observation that the postmodern generation objects to "institutions" with "top down" leadership structures is accurate. In the postmodern workplace, however, leadership is valued. Leadership is NOT authoritative, but is a recognized gift. Members work in teams, with the leadership sometimes changing depending upon the tasking at hand. The contributions of all team members are valued and expected.
I do not think we need to change the names of elders, evangelist, minister,teachers, deacons--though servant might be better. What I do believe is leadership MUST be viewed not as authoritative top down "office". It is true that there are different functions depicted. But all are working together as a team with members --who are equally gifted.
We will dicuss necessary leadership traits and characteristic in a "missional" church this week and next in some depth.
To Cam and All: On you observation about "clickesness". You are right. The unchurch see this and do not want any part of it.
This clubness does make for a "safe haven" for us doesn't it.
QUESTION FOR EVERYONE TO THINK ABOUT:
When did and do people become Christians more often and why: 1) when they are "safe" in society or 2) when they are not "safe" in society?
Professor,
According to your last question,
When did often become christian? I think we need to look back at least 100 years ago and one of the reason that I think is technology,
Technology becomes more and more important today and these things are good but in the other hand it brings people down on their spiritual. We used to eat what we have, wear normal clothes, live at a small house but now greedy becomes part of human and they're not interested in other things else, technology makes people think and see things that they never seen before and that lead them to sin.
Christian never be safe in this society. That how I think.
In regard to your question Professor Nored, history has shown that in the midst of harsh persecution the Chrusch grows in numbers and strength. The CHurch becomes like this secret form of freedom that people adopt. Sadly, as in teh case of the fall of teh Berlin wall, once social freedom happens many people leave the church and go back to the world. I'm not sure what impact that has on us in a society where Christians are not really persecuted (but appear to do some persecuting in certain peoples views), but it seems that Christianity thrives as a secret freedom proclaimed from the rooftops.
I think that non-christains become christains when they are not save in safe" in society and they can see no hope and cant do it on there own anymore they relise that there is something far great that them selfs and thier own strenght.
According to your beginning questions, Professor
1. The attitude f some churches today , think they are the only one true church, holy and righteous. Not really understanding God, humnaity, et alone themselves. Making themselves unreachable and unrelatable
But Jesus who is holy, righteous and understnads the human needs. He is full of love, comfession for mankind. Making himself relatable and reachable
2. To be like Jesus is his understanding the human needs, to be full of love and comfession for are another. To let them know we are not perfect and we make mistakes. To make ourselves relatable and reachable.
3. We think we are holy and righteous and our crap don't stink we need to tell the truth tell it as it is straight of the Bible. that we are all sinners them and us and that we need God help and grace.
To Professor :
i think that the Church needs to look aout side of the square and consider what the options are first, what are they here for? what is there main concern? and why do they do what they do, is it habit that has become tradition or is it what God calls the chruch to be, by backing this with evidence from the scripture, but not bending the scripture to fit there agenda. If it is God will then there will be no need for changes and i am the one who needs to change. But if it is not and it is wavering in comfort then it is dieing. And there needs to be a step of faith. Some of those steps could be more fellowship with in and out of the body,community out reach, that get involved with non-christains, life in the chruch: Not so sollom and serious espeacillay on sunday. here are a few little things, that could help if the case is needed.
do you think one needs to do to change those opinions?
To Rog.
As a businessman, is it easy to have something be a success if there is no structure to it? Can a programme function well if it is not being managed at all?
I am aware that Christians in the early church were often gathered in homes but tell if Paul willed there to be ‘structure’ in the church. Did God put an order in Judaism? What is the will of God?
Question: Instead of calling yourself a Christian, you call yourself a follower of Christ when people ask you. Doesn’t that make them more confused? “Is this yet another denomination or cult?” they ask, either that or it can put you on a superior plank to other Christians - “I like to think of myself…” you said; in saying this you are also separating yourself from brothers and sisters.
Paul,
i agree with your comment about meeting new Christians and becoming more involved with them. However, i believe it's more important to keep the contacts and relationships going with our friends that aren't in the church.
But in saying that can i join in your fishing club? LoL....
To eddie and All:
One hundred years ago was about the beginning of the 1900's. Note the "technological age" had already begun with invention of the steam engine. So, I would disagree that technology is the cause that lead man to sin. Greed is greed whether we have technology or not.
I believe you are correct when you indicate Christians are never free from sin.
To Aimee and All:
You are perceptive to observe that when Christians are faced with persecution that they grow (both individually and in numbers).
What do you think this might say about us if we only associate with others who are Christians and never get out of our personal safe comfort zones? Isn't it likely that as we get out of our "safe" places we would also grow personally and in numbers?
To Amy G and All:
Well said. And, I think you are right that we "die" if we waver in "comfort"
A message for all of us, is "Lets start being doers of the WORD - like the Nike ad says "Just do it."
To Cam and Roger:
On you comments on structure:
An organic "cell" has structure. But the growth or multiplication of the cell is based upon the inherent characteristics of the cell, i.e it's DNA. It is part of what makes that cell a living organism. The growth of the church in the first 3 centuries ( and in China today) was organic growth. The "DNA" of each Christian had inherently their makeup a replication of Christ within them. It did not depend on the kind of institutional structures we have today i.e located permanent 'senior" ministers, hired staff, permanent facilities, even bible colleges, ministry programs, "exciting" worship, etc. Yet, the number of Christians grew expotentially.
This does say such structures are "wrong", but since we are not growing (church attendance in all Western countries is falling dramatically), that perhaps reliance on such structures for growth is both overrated and missing something.
On calling myself a following of Christ: It is my own personal opinion that this does not confuse non Christians. As I indicated to Roger, calling one a follower of Jesus (which is true) is language many in that are not Christians will accept. And, that initial acceptance (since the statement is true) is important if we wish to continue the dialog.
To Terrance and All:
I like your reference to the Nike Ad of "Just Do It". The real question is what are the practical specific things that we should be doing with those that are not Christians. We will talk a lot more about this in the next two Fridays.
according to your question Professor,
i think people will become Christian when they cant see hope in the life...i remember the time of 911 in NY they were many people who looked for hope and they also lost their member of their family in that time there were many people became Christian because they get lost..they realized on what they have (physical things) but they did not think about their spiritual...when they lost their security then they would like to be saved that's why they try t find the church!
on the other hand, we should work more than that, not just wait for something happen and wait for them to come to us...Jesus teaches the diciples about the parable of the lost sheep..we should also find the lost one in the world too..but in saying that, when they get lost they will learn about realize on what they have...they have to learn to find God too!
I agree with Terance that "JUST DO IT"
if we do not do it how it will work...we should try first and pray and ask God to guide us what we have to do...i believe if we have the same attitude "JUST DO IT" there are many people will be saved in God
TO leenette:
i agree on what you said about the non chruch they recognize jesus but they dont have the same connection to Jesus as christains do. But i also think that it depends on the person and there world view of Jesus and also christains and "relegion" it deturmen what there answer will be but, GOOD throught leenette, well said.
To Roger : what do you mean by orgainsed structure ? because if you mean communitey they are all for that.and if they can see that this community it loving and all about sticking together then thats waht they do outside of the church so they will see no threat to that and espt it quicker thatn we think. so please explane?
Anonymous said...that is me whoops.
To Roger : what do you mean by orgainsed structure ? because if you mean communitey they are all for that.and if they can see that this community it loving and all about sticking together then thats waht they do outside of the church so they will see no threat to that and espt it quicker thatn we think. so please explane?
I agree with Eddie that people like Jesus but do not like the church because of the way we acts or look on them. One of my friend who is not Christian tole me that, she likes Jesus and His teaching in the Bible, but she doesn't like to come to the church because of some of us look at her with strange looking such as she look down on her.
Hahaha anon-amy!!
But, srsly:
Maybe the "unsafe" environment today is socialising with non-christians, going out of your comfort zone and into personal danger zones, eg if your an older person who is uncomfortable with homosexual people...talk to one! I am uncomfortable around men as a general thing, but I put myself out there and talk to guys (christian and non), and I am no longer as uncomfortable...i now count men amongst my friends. just an idea..
Our problem is prideful, many times we thought that we are in the right way of God, we are Christians and then we thought that we are bettr than others. Thus when we look to others we look on them and think "Oh, I am better than you." And when they look back on us, they found out that attitude then they will hurt in their hearts and the consequence is that they will not like the church and aways think negative about the church.
To Professor,
The formula of life, DNA, is one of, if not these most complex structures in existence. If - as is the case with every part of the human body (see 1 Cor. 12) - DNA is to succeed in continuing or replicating life, it must work in tandem with other molecular parts, mRNA for instance??
To Annie and Everyone:
I believe you are right when some come to Jesus when they have no other hope. One son of a very renowned preacher in our brotherhood had been an atheist since a teen. He said when his life had "hit bottom", he saw no other answer other than God.
But, as you said, we should not wait until this happens.
Prayer w5th "doing it" is a powerful combination.
Neueng:
Good observation about your friend. What do you think some are doing in the church to make her think that they "look down on her"?
To Aimee and Everyone:
I agree that to many Christians today that the "unsafe" environment is being with non-Christians in many of the places where non Christians are. I know one minister in our area who goes one day a week and sits that day a local bar. He is reading/studying etc. As a result of that he has been able to talk to non-Christians about Jesus that would not normally talk to him at all.
Perhaps it is not just be around non Christians but many of us who are Christians stay "safe" by separating the "sacred" areas of our lives from the "secular" areas. That is, when we are with non Christians at Starbucks, soccer , etc. we never take time to engage non Christians in deeper relationships and conversations. By this separation we keep ourselves "safe".
To Neueng and Everyone:
I believe you are right about "pride". Some of this, I think, we ourselves are not aware of. But, our attitudes are obvious to those that are not members of our "club" i.e. church.
Cam and Everyone:
Good comments!
We will be looking at an analogy between DNA and the "DNA" that is inherent in every Christian body to replicate other Christians. Hearst calls this "missional DNA" or mDNA. And and as you know, DNA contains the "code" for replication. However, to build up the body, it must work in conjunction with other parts as you observed. As we will see, in the church, this is done by the each member being given "gifts". And in Eph 4 there are certain gifts--we will call them apostolic gifts-- that are denoted to "build up the body" ( I do not mean miraculous gifts, but gifts "given to men" for the purpose of building up the body)
to professor,
my friend she has thoght that way, because perhaps she used to be an english student for many years and she also came to our church many times and worship with us. She used to study Bible and she said, she likes Jesus and His teaching but she still think that every religions teach people to be good and she is not become a Christians. I think because of that reason some of us when they looked on her, they had showed her some feeling on their faces such as curious, question, or even prejucice. These are made her feeling down and doesn't like the church.
What are we going to do for take away our pride from our hearts? It is very hard. Even among us (Christians in Churches of Christ) we still compare that ourselves better than others. Example concerning education, race or ethnic, position etc. And many time those things are hurt in the deep of hearts of people.
Another one of my friends, he said to me that, he will take his daughter to study in Christians' school. I asked him why? because you are not Christians. He replied to me, because Christians' school has a good evironment and the education standard is better than others, and then I ashed him that, would you like to go to church with me? He suddenly say to me, No! I do like Jesus and the way that Christins live their lives but I do not want to go to church.
Neueng:
Those are good observations and we should all take heed at what those outside the church think. The idea that are religions are really the same is a prevalent postmodern attitude also.
Many also like Jesus and the way Christians act, but are wary of the church or dont like the way Christians act at church.
This should tell us that for a large group of the unchurched, asking them to come to church may not be the right approach initially. So.... we will discuss better ways to engage non Christians than initially asking them to church.
on question one why do the unchurched like Jesus but not the church. i would have to say the reason for this is simple to me Jesus lived and was what he preached and we the "church" are sadly lacking in this area, we are a group of do what i say not what i do, and that just not even logical and whoever wakes us and says "hum i think i'll follow a hyprocrite today" i think not!
question #2
what we need to do is not force the church down peoples throats but live Jesus and we wont even have to seek them really they will come to us wanting to know.
ps
i am not saying to seek people, just spend time really developing a relationship with people
Question #3
i think the most hurtful to the unchurched is the judgmental nature of the church, they are forever laying down their laws for others and this just does not sit well with the "whatever" attitude of the postmodern person.
what we need to do about it is love them not judge them thats God's work anyhow
Professor
what do the postmodernest think is nedded when "doing church"?
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