I am requiring this so that everyone in the class gets a least a summary of each chapter to read.
Thanks.
P.S.: Use the comment section of this post only for posting your written assignment above. Do not us it for discussion.
Saturday, November 1, 2008
Use This Post for Assignment No. 2 Required Posting
Use the comment for this Post to post your Writing Assignment for the specific Reading assigned for "They Like Jesus, but Not the Church". Note that a hard copy is also to be turned on Nov. 7. The electronic copy for this post is also due on Nov. 7 by the beginning of class.
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CHAPTER 13: A GREAT HOPE FOR THE FUTURE
The first part this chapter talks about mythological stories from Egyptian, Persian, Greek and Roman Gods. Their story has some similarities with the life of Jesus being the son of a virgin, resurrected and being called as the son of God. According to the author, that there is no truth with regards to the origin of the story of the life of Jesus and that it was not being based on any of these mythological stories. As a Christian, we should always be prepared in giving answers to every questions, but do this with respect and gentleness (1 peter 3:15). The author is actually encouraging his readers to build friendship to those who are not Christians or those people outside the church. He also shared some of his experiences to different types of people who are not having the same ideas and beliefs that he have. According to the author, we should use what we have learnt from the church to those people who have no idea of what apologetics is. We need to let them know why we believe. He also said that the negative perceptions of people outside the church are hardly ever about Jesus; they are about us. He even quoted some famous people (Bill Maher, Woody Allen, and Mahatma Gandhi) who said something about believing to Jesus but not to those who work for him. He urges us to live out our faith in our culture so that people can see that not all Jesus’ followers fit the stereotypes. He also said that if our church is not perfect, we should not be discourage, but rather we need to focus on having missional heart, fully dependent of God’s spirit, and not being afraid to make changes and take risks for the gospel. Accepting that we do made mistakes is something that will make a big difference, meaning the church need to apologize if they hurt people in the name of Jesus. Humility is the key, meaning we need to humble ourselves. We need to explain to them, that Jesus loves the church and that if they truly like Jesus they should like the church because the church is his body and his holy people. If they put their faith to Jesus, whether they realize it or not, they are supernaturally part of the church.
“They Like Jesus but Not the Church” Chaper2 pp 36-48
The Christian bubble
This chapter talks of how we as Christians have slowly formed a bubble around us in our relationships. We have slowly stopped socializing with the world and got more and more involved with the church activities and fallow Christians in our effort to grow and learn more about Jesus. In affect we a have formed the Christian club with T shirts and fish stickers for our cars, bracelets’ to indicate to others who we are. When we go some where we go with Christians, when we do things we do it with Christians and as a result all our ideas come from Christians. In effect we have sheltered ourselves form the out side world and to be honest, had I now tried to convert the old me I’m not so sure I would have listen to me for we all fail to connect with the people who need saving by staying in the bubble (Christian club). Jesus came to save the sick not the healthy, he instructed us in the great commission go and make disciples not bring your friends to the church to get the pastor to do the evangelizing. At the same extent the chapter goes on to say that Christian fellowship is not to be ruled out but rather used to gain encouragement to go out and preach and teach in a one on one relationship setting with non Christians to gently guide them to Jesus , to form friends and relate experiences and let our actions speak for us
CHAPTER 10: THE CHURCH IS FULL OF FUNDAMENTALISTS WHO TAKE THE WHOLE BIBLE LITERALLY.
I believe the writer to be saying the reason the unchurched do not like coming to church is because they believe it is full of hard core fundamentalists who take the Bible literally. This chapter talks about how the 5 core beliefs of the faith have been taken to extremes by some believers and they have even twisted them to suit their own interpretations. Some unchurched people that the writer interviews have some very harsh things to say in regards to 'fundamentalists' e.g. "They take apart the Bible and pull out the verse they want to shame people with."
"They verbally beat the hell out of those who disagree with their particular interpretation."
They take the Bible literally. The author himself has fundamental beliefs and can take the Bible literally but he explains where and when this should take place especially when reading different genres. Our job is to understand what parts of scripture are literal and which are metaphorical or figurative truth.
What the writer would like to see happen is for more congregations to be better educated in God's word. The author goes on to explain we must be better prepared when faced with challenging questions that we never had to face before by both the unchurched and the churched. The only way to do this he say's is to do our homework. So his suggestions are to teach people in our churches basic Bible study skills - offer classes on how to study and understand the Bible. Help equip the church on theology in order for them to be able to have informed, respectful discussions with those outside the church.
The fundamentalist believes "The Bible say's it, I believe it, end of story!!" They don't look into the historicity, cultures, genres etc. They take things literally and end up twisting the Bible. If we say someone is a yellow bellied coward it doesn't mean his stomach has turned yellow. The same is meant in the Bible, don't take everything literally. Fundamentalists can be scary and frightening people if your an outsider and don't know God's word.
Chapter 7: The church is dominated by males and oppresses females
The author talks about the role of the women in the church. Following the Scriptures 1 Conrin 12:34-35, Paul said that 'Women shoulf remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." The main role of women in the church is about teaching class (mostly kids' class) but the author tells that the women can do more than that, they have the abilities that they could be a part of the leaders of the church. He also suggests that they could be the elders or pastors or something else according their abilities. Nowsday women have many things that some of them better than the men( ei attitudes or working) so the church should change the attitude about the women' role in the church. we should give them the oppotunities to be a part of the team to work for the church not just put them to work behind the scence. we should include the women into the high-levels of the leadership and decision-making. when the elders have a meeting they should include the women to be a part of the meeting, they might get the idea to work for the church. Women have the detail information more than men. We shoule give the women the respectful in the church not just behind the scence.
CHAPTER 5: THE CHURCH IS AN ORGANISED RELIGEION WITH A POLITICAL AGENDA.
This Chapter focused on the opinions many have formed regarding the agenda of teh church. Kimball gives three reasons why people may have this view of teh church:
1. I can relate to God without all of the unnatural structure the organised church would impose:
Virtually everyone (says Kimball) has some form of belief in God or a higher power these days, but they do not see churches as a place to seek God - they develop a relationship with God on their own and have negative impressions of the church. They have the idea that chruch leaders will control them by dictating how they should worship God, organize their fath, change how they dress think and act. "They feel that church leaders would box in how theyexpress their spirituality, cluttering it with rules and strangling it with restrictions".
2. The Church is about heirarchy, power and control with a political agenda:
Many people are beginning to feel that churches push their own biases and agendas, particularily political agendas, on their patrons. SOme believe the church pushes their political views on political leaders and their flocks, coercing them. In truth, it is the political leaders who use the church for their own agendas, puching "hot buttons" to get church support from extreme fundamentalists.
3. The Church is made of leaders who function like CEO's and desire power and control:
This view has come about because of the changes in ministerial titles. They used to be "pastor" and "reverend", but now they convey a more business-like tone (eg Vice President, Worship Operations). This is a product of the baby boomers, and now drives people away from the church - everything enforces that the church is organised religeon, not a faith.
A quick mention was made about the roles of young leaders in the church. It's true that quite often younger voices are not listened to, and thats something todays generation resents (especially since some church founders were quite young when they made big changes). The heirarchal system has a habit of dampening young peoples voices and only listning to those who are higher up.
Kimball then goes on to point out ways that the church can be organised, without being organised religeon (eg being more CHrist-focused than preacher-focused), Empowering young leaders, creating a relaxed, worshipful atmosphere, being sensitive to the use of teh pulpit for personalagendas and letting go of the trappings of teh corporate world. We need to change the view from "The church is an organised religeon with a political agenda" tp "The church is an organised community with a hear to serve others".
Chapter 11:
In the opening of this chapter the author would like the leaders of the church to go out and ask the community the question - What do they wish the church were like?
The author goes on to say on another subject it does not matter how old or young you are, you can still have a good relationship with one another.
Young people still need older people as role models. The young still want genuine relationships with the older generation.
But they are turned off with those that try to make them conform to their particular Christian sub-culture.
We should not get people to go to "church." But invite people to participate in the life of the church, to participate in the activities of God.
We need to understand the difference between "belonging, then believing." If we give them a sense of belonging, they might start believing.
The majority surveyed to the question above came back with these responses:
1.I would like the churches to be small enough to have a dialogue.
2.To be able to have discussion with the Pastor during the service.
3.They believe small groups you learn better in.
4.Tired of listening to a Pastor for an hour.
5.Tired of the formality.
6.They believe that Jesus would accept anyone, no matter what they wore or looked like.
They would like a more informal comfortable setting.
Chapter 12:Our Two Biggest Barries.The first part of this chapter is on "A New Chasm in the Bridge Illustration". "this is about how the illustration places God on only one side of the chasm,when we know that God is everywhere" some of the chariters are that the Gosple is being only about the forgiveness of sin and keeping and joining in etural live in with God in Glory. but this is not just the case it is also living etral life now and living in the kingdom now. the writter explans that the bridge illustation works well. The writer goes on to explan the difference in a post-christian culture, these sorts of people have a second chasm this is the chasm of the Christian sub culture that we have created that is rhetoric and also attitudes.Because of this we have made a negitive attitudes to wards Christianity and belivers. And the out come of this is that they dont trust us and are not interested in the GOOD NEWS!. in this he writes how he has built a new Chasm that gets to the sin. That we need to earn there trust in time by relationship.This brakes the "Bubble" that we have as christains and it stops the staying stale comfortabities within our church walls and events and networks. And makes us the light of the world and true description of Jesus in a world of darkness and anti christ, with out christ. We need to help people understand the scripture properly and to give them hope. we/ chruch need to invite them in to our communitey and fellowship with them out side of the "church". the second part of this chapter was about "focusing on the kingdom now and aswell as the kingdom after we die" this is all about how we as fellowers of christ."God that gives us the privilege of participating with him in loving other and making a differnce on earth, people today can relate to it." Rom 10.9,Luk 9.23,acts 3:19. the third part was a call for us to go out and to dig a chasm with our Christain shovels this means that it is each one of ours responsibilites to go out and do something about it because there are many people that are still lost and may have never herd the good news, the forth is about where our strenght comes from to do this and to keep it up. It is from the lord and he provides the Holy Spirt.the fived is about how it is are responsibility to go out and save the lost because jesus loves them too as muchas he loves us who are saved and he wonts them to be found. The fivth is a remder that we all have sined and a reminder of the fact that we once were lost and needing hope too.The sixth and final point is that we are as Gods people are called to love one another and this also means non-christains that are love and it also means the people in socity that are the unlovely like the drunks the homeless and the prostitutes. For God is still working today.less we forget.Christians today need to remeber what anowsome God we have and how powerful he his, he is far greater than we know or can fathom. lets remeber this, in our walk towards getting the Good NEWS out unto the world!!
Basically this chapter talks about what do people think about Jesus, Christian and the church. What do we have to do to improve with the relationship with the non-Christians? According to the author, he went to interview some students at the campus and asking them about what do they think about Jesus and the church. Most of them said that they really like Jesus but they do not like the church or the name Christian.
At the church, we have so many activities to do such as meetings, cell group, hanging out with christens, study the bible and many but we sometimes forget to focus the people outside of the church. Which means that for the whole week we spend most of the time with ONLY Christian, The author said that sometimes the church office is the prison, because we spend too much time at the church and do not realize that there are many people out there who needs to hear about the word of God. We spend our Friday nights watching movies with our Christian friend.
When we first become Christians, we are excited about God and excited to share with other friends who are not. We spent most of the time doing activity with Christian’s friends and our lives have changed. Christian like to go out and doing some stuffs, but we do not realize that sometimes it is to much and for some of us, our parents or friends do not like what we do because we spend a lot of time with Christians more than spending time with them.
The longer we become Christian the fewer the number of friends we have who are not Christians. But shouldn’t it be that the longer we are Christians and the longer we walk with Jesus and understand the grace of God, the more we desire to see others experience God’s grace as well? We now become a part of the Christian bubble which means that we listen to only Christians music, talk to only Christian friends, wearing Christian t-shirt and saying we are true Christians but the fact is we forget what Jesus command us to do. “Go, preach and teach and baptize them…” So instead of spending time with only Christians, go out and meet some new friends and who knows they might be the one that we can help them to know.
The author spent time every Wednesday doing his sermon at the coffee shop instead of at the church. He made some new friends and got to share with them about the church. That is what I want to do.
CHAPTER 9: THE CHURCH ARROGANTLY CLAIMS ALL OTHER RELIGIONS ARE WRONG.
This review will cover chapter 9 of They like Jesus but Not the Church, which is entitled The Church Arrogantly Claims all other Religions are wrong.
This chapter opened with the author discussing a friend of his named Duggan. He stated that Duggan is a good person to know if you want a summary of what people are thinking in today’s world. He did not grow up in a ‘religious’ family, but he was told by his parents to investigate the possibilities for himself and come to his own conclusions. His dad gave him a Bible, a Koran and some Buddhist writings to name a few.
Duggan was particularly drawn to the Buddhist teachings because he really liked the overall emphasis that they had, and he also believed that Buddhism predated Christianity. Duggan believed that the message of Jesus was similar to the message of Buddhism (love others, be kind etc) but this message did not come across well because Christians do not act in this way. He said that Christians seem to instantly dismiss other religions as wrong and it is almost impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a Christian about why they do this because they do not seem to know why other religions are wrong and it freaks them out.
The author continues by stating what Christians need to do about this. Firstly, we need to view our world as a post-Christian world. In other words, we live in a pluralistic society and many people take the view that all roads lead to God. Unlike the past, being a Christian is not viewed as a positive thing by many people. Not only that, but due to multiculturalism, Christianity is not the only choice in our world anymore, and many Christians are not aware of this.
Kimball continues by stating what he believes us as Christians need to do about this. Firstly, we need to have a basic understanding of other world faiths. People in our culture have this understanding, and this is why many Christians are seen as narrow-minded. We need to have an idea of how Christianity fits into other world religions in the scheme of things, and he provides a diagram of how the world faiths developed on page 173. Kimball says that when you can explain the various claims and beliefs of other religions, and if you can explain the background of Judaism, then you can explain why Jesus made the exclusivist claims, such as “I am the way, the truth and the life”.
The author then says that we need to train our churches to understand world faiths. This will not only attract the members of that church, but also ‘outsiders’.
Thirdly, we need to be able to explain why not all paths lead to God. In a nutshell, this is because the different gods in various religions are vastly different (Christianity – the Trinitarian God, Islam – the one god of the Koran, and Hinduism – many gods). Just this fact alone shows that not all religions lead to God. Kimball provides some diagrams and additional explanations about this on p177-182.
Fourthly, we need to understand that not all world faiths are wholly wrong. There are elements of truth in all other religions, and when we as Christians are willing to admit that, then this will impact other people. We need to be willing to admit the common ground before explaining the differences.
Finally, Kimball discusses the resurrection, and how to tell others why we believe Jesus rose from the dead. He says that this is where apologetics comes in, but he does not provide any examples. We need to find tangible evidence to verify our claims that Jesus rose from the dead which we can share with people in a gentle and non-judgmental manner.
This chapter has been a very interesting read for me and I have found it very helpful. I look forward to reading the remainder of this book.
HOMOPHOBIA IN THE CHURCH TODAY:
Dan Kimball says:
The church today shows no understanding, nor have any sympathy, for those who are gay. Is the church is homophobic? No, the church is not plainly homophobic, but appears as enemies. This is what many gay people feel and certainly, what society sees.
Kimball’s book shows great sympathy and empathy for those who have a homosexual orientation. He speaks of some of the nicest and most supportive people that he has ever met being gay; they are simply fellow sinners. Society in recent years has become more comfortable with opening up sexuality; and it is the homosexual practice, not its orientation that is to be condemned. The homosexual orientation is not something that people choose to have, it is something that people either are born with or have due somehow to their backgrounds.
Two lesbian women discuss issues and experiences: Karen, who for many years was in a lesbian relationship but has now become celibate, and Penny who remains a lesbian. An experience Penny recounts a story of when she was working on a Christian ranch for the holidays. She made sure that nobody on the ranch knew that she was gay because it was sure that that would end in nothing but pain. At the end when some of the people on the ranch found she was taking a trip up to San Francisco to see her girlfriend, one of the Christians asked if she was “going to Gay Bay where all the faggots rot.”
It is put forward that we are all sinners and continue to sin. We are to accept gays and help them feel comfortable to talk. [While this has many valid points to it, I think it needs to be recognised that sexual sin is a deliberate defilement of the temple of God. It is not ‘a slip of the tongue’ but an intentional action]. The point is made that Jesus brought himself down to the level of ALL sinners, not only a few [it needs to be said though, that Jesus did not tell the sinners to continue in their ways].
In reality, he says, most churches are not like this but we can see why they might be viewed this way. A lot of Christians today - particularly if they do not know any gay friend - view people who are gay in the same way as gay activists. Another point, which is sad but true, is that people will often regard others (particularly those who are gay) by their sexuality; it is almost as if you lose your identity - or your identity becomes your sexuality- when you are gay.
Rather than plainly quoting verses we need to explain them; people will question and challenge scripture - he gives various accounts of this. Interestingly, the author of a Primer on Postmodernism, Stanley Grenz, was mentioned in this chapter also. We are told to pray for people who are gay, and says that it is important that gay people know God’s will regarding sexuality, but it needs to be done the right way.
Reaction comments and questions:
- Is this more a picture of an American culture style, because many of the horrible comments are nothing like how I have seen churches in NZ treat gay people? From what I have seen, it is usually “hate the sin but not the sinner.” Correct me if I am wrong.
- A question that arose for me was how did the Anglican Church fit in to all of this? I mean, is the church not supposed to condemn homosexuality? The Anglican Church appears to endorse it. Where is the logic?
- NZ society is very tolerant and accepting of homosexuality; it has a very “whatever floats your boat” attitude. Dan was speaking of stats and how homophobic people were seeing the church outside of society, but I think that it is important to recognise that society is changing and so are its values. If Christians remain strong in condemning homosexuality then naturally with the way society is going will appear in a “worse” light. Society does not see HS as wrong but the church does and should - that is because we believe in the word of God and this is what it states, like it or not; truth never changes just man’s opinion of it.
- I believe we should stand p for friend who are gay but help them to overcome that obstacle.
- I think we need to realise how strong sexual desire is and its obstacle.
- While not to some people, it appears to me that Dan takes the sin quite lightly.
They Like Jesus but Not the Church: Chapter 6 Response
I was assigned chapter six "the church is judgmental and negative". This was a very interesting and needed
topic, this chapter is all about how the churches negative image is driving people away from God, rather then us
reflecting Jesus and drawing them to him. He talked about how we need to shift our focus from what we stand
against to what we stand for, because if our focus is on what we stand against; we will be on the attack and of
corse we will portray ourselves as judgmental and negative. But if we focus on what we stand for, we will slowly
be molded into Jesus' image, and people can not help but be drawn to that. He explains that the best way to
reach the unchurched is to live spiritual lives, not just speak the words. he warns us not to force on them matters
of opinion and to stick only to the biblical truths. He also wanted to stress the point of not leaving out talks and
info on sin and repentance, because they are a part of truth; it is just that we need to make sure and build a
relationship with these fellow creations of God before we lay it on them so to speak, it is all about timing. we need
to find a balance between our in-feces on sin and love talks with people; leaning to far either direction c an lead to
a false understanding. we need to become more active in our lives as Christians, because whether we know it or
not, they are watching and our actions speak far louder then any words we could ever say.
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