1) In you own home town and/or place that you wish to minister in, what are the places that you think it will be best to meet the "unchurched" in order to begin to build true relationships with them. Describe these places by name and why they would be good.
2) Describe the ways you believe you could begin a conversation with those you have meet that would lead to their considering spiritual things. What would say to them or what kind of questions would you ask. Note: I do not wish you to repeat what I have in the slides, but rather think of what you believe would be effective with the people you would know are come to know.
3) Ask each other ( as well me) what questions that you would like to have further discussion and/or answers on concerning evangelism to the unchurched in a postmodern age or the missional church concept.
57 comments:
I've been thinking about this alot since our classes. Simply because at the end of this year I'm going to be in this very situation. I will be returning to my home town. I don't have a job to go back to so I guess my first port of call will be to get one. If I'm successful then my work place will be one area I'll look at as a place to meet people and tell my story. Other places are the sports clubs I'm affliated to. I play alot of sports and you have your close sports mates so there I will be sharing my story with them.
It's a start for me, who knows where God will lead it....
As far as what kind of questions I would ask them in order to strike up a conversation about spirituality. I don't know, most of my friends know I'm here at the Bible College. Some ask me questions about what it is we learn. Others are too scared to ask me just incase I leap into a fully fledged sermon. But most of the time I let them come to me. Most of the time this has happened and the questions I get from them are about heaven and hell, why do I believe in an invisible God, what about reincarnation..... I generally end up asking them questions about their questions and it leads into really good discussions and we learn off each other.
In campbelltown theres not a lot of places that people regularily hang out. Gloria JEans coffee shops and The Square (a huge shopping mall) are places that are great to meet people randomly, but its not the best place. I think, for ye olde c-town, meeting people would probably happen within sports clubs or at coffee shops more than anything else.
regarding questions I would ask, I have to agree with Jose - i just don't know. Conversation and relationships are such complex, organicly moving things that its hard to know before even making friends with someone what questions you would ask them. I prefer to let conversation move naturally - i may mention being at bible college ort being a christian, and see if they ask questions first, or I may use current national and world events to raise questions. I honestly think pre-determining questions is like going in with a mindset to convert, not converse in a friendship.
Answering question 1, for me I'm in a position where I'm not 100% sure where I'll be in the future (but I'm sure God will reveal it to me). Things I could do no matter where I am however is find ways to meet new people. I used to play tennis back in the day. Perhaps I could join a local tennis club and use that to meet new people. I also like to go to coffee shops and chill, but since going to Bible college I haven't done that a whole lot. Maybe I should make a habit of doing that again. I also need to ensure I'm asking God to present opportunities my way and for the courage to take up those opportunities, and then actively seek those opportunites
For me, having a conversation with people whom you do not know can be unpredictable most of the time. You just cant make a script on what you are going to say and rehearse it every now and then. If I were to decide, I would probably invite my friends(non Christians) to a small gathering and then I will share to them my experiences here and what I've learn for the past years that I've been here in New Zealand. I want to start a conversation to those people I know because I believe that they will pay attention to what I am going to say.
For me I think I will have to jion some clubs, maybe a fishing club , to start getting me out there. I was also thinking of having the bible studies at a coffee shop on a regular basis.I was also thinking of looking to see if there was anything like drug arm in Rotorua and if not try and form one. Another thing that has been pressing on my mind would be to do some mision trips to places that are still 3rd world such as cambodia and africa.
I guess I could ask about nature while fishing and the scenary and how that came about , how it was created, who can appreaciate nature eg can animals and there for why? As for the coffe shop i would expect what we would be doing there would atuomaticaly draw the questions
Hello Everyone;
I want everyone to know I am reading the blogs. However, this time I wish to have everyone make their comments,and ask each other any questions or comments this brings to mind.
i do intend to respond at the last of the week on everyone one's comments individually. this is especially true as they relate to what you might practically do to implement what have discussed.
Q 1:
Houses of congregation Small Groups.
Different ministries like cardmaking, maybe at the church or at somebody else’s house.
At the church for teaching on such things as marriage and family counseling
Just a general social club and work God into it.
Activities such as BBQ’s
Sports - gyms
Each of the above places have their own special qualities. A church is a good “meeting” area; a home is a comfortable place to meet, both socially and physically; it is good to meet outside and there are numerous good things about this. Interaction through sports is greatly valuable
Q 2:
How has your day been? This can progress spiritually, particularly if the question is reciprocated.
Get beside someone who’s having trouble: you had a rough time recently? Begin to sympathise, empathise and incorporate God and possibly your testimony in the conversation.
You can also begin these discussions with your friends when you initiate the discussion with your friend.
Speaking about activities that you and your friends (the majority of whom are Christians) are doing, or of events that other church ministries are setting up.
Their may be times when you can be very upfront in just asking, are you a Christian, why or why not?
All:
To elaborate on your discussion among each other: Read each others comments and make suggestions or ask questions. For this blog discussion you should consider yourselves each at member of a team, and thus need to help each other.
Tks
We had an interesting conversation in our pastoral care and counseling class today. We were talking about smoking. I'm an ex smoker for three years now and after sharing this with our teacher James Hinkle he came up with this really good idea that I'd like to try when I get back to my home town. To stop smoking I read a book called "Alan Carrs Stop Smoking" James suggested that I get a group of people together that want to stop smoking and discuss this book in my home or somewhere neutral like a coffee shop. There are a few people that had already asked me how I stopped smoking before I left Masterton I was a heavy smoker so I think they might be thinking "if Jose can stop I can stop" so I'm going to catch up with them and see how it goes. Alan Carr mentions a "higher being" in his book and then comes right out and say's if God wanted us to smoke he would have created us with built in chimney's. So thats a great way to bring God into the conversation. What does everybody think?
To Cam: When you say to get along side someone and sympathize with them and then bring God into the conversation and then your own story. Are you saying you would do this straight away or would you take your time? I just think that if you go straight to sympathising and then God and then you it might not seem genuine it might look and sound forced and its more about you rather than them. I'd be interested in your response.
Hahahaha - I agree Jose! (just imagine us walking around with chimneys sticking out of our heads!). That sounds like areally good idea jose - you should go for it! You got me thinking about what i could do in C-town, and I though to myself "C-town is so darn ugly, perhaps I can create a "beautify this ugly town" group or something and go around cleaning up graffiti, picking up rubbish, planting trees and flowers and raising money for things to make c-town purty". I dunno how well that'd work, but i know it'd get other cause-minded people involved and provide a great opportunity to get to know people. I just hope there are others out ther who thing c-town is as ugly as I do!
To everyone: what makes you not wont to have a relationship with a none christain or not wont to start a conversation with a complet strainger, i gess im asking because i dont understaind how you feel or what the praoblem is and i wont to relate with you ? For me i gess i do this alot , that is talk to straighers i find talking to a complet straiger about christ and what i believe far easyer than with christains. SO please if you think you can enlighten me please do, im all ears ??????
To Joe & Aimee, I agree that one of the great places to meet the unchurch, is your local sports club. The squash club I go, all the people there know I believe in God, and know I attend Bible colloge. To my suprise they have being asking me about God, college,etc.
To Amy G, like you I dont have a problem talking to people about God, I love it. I certainly dont go out and bible bash people, but if they ask I'm ready to give an answer.
It sounds like we all agree, that belonging to a sports club might be the way to go to meet with the unchurch. I agree with Aimee in letting them know you attend Bible college, great way to get started.
To Paul, I like your ideas. I to have been thinkimg about setting up drug arm in Rotorua, We might be able to help one another. I also want to set up a home for the homeless. I believe we need to help the community and show our faith with our works.
To Paul, I forgot to say. I dont agree with the coffee shop idea, I would perfer the pub.
To the devine Miss G;
I like to talk to non-christians because to me its normal. I didn't have any christian friends till I cam here - I preferred to be friends with non-christians. I honestly just want to be their friend - I never ever ever start talking to someone with the alterior motive of converting them - I just want to be friends. Evangelising to them comes later, when a relationship is established. I realise that this is subject to change, but its they way I am now.
i agree with ter when it comes to out reaching why dont we do something like a bar with out the alchole and have coffe in stead, i think that if the place could take on the image of a bar it would bring more postmodern people to us and we would me closer to them and there world out view.
to jose: i think that what we said in P.C.C in regards to you doing out reach with the book that help you kick the smocking is a really differnt and wonderful idear. i think you should go ahead and really consider doing this when you go back home. im really exicted for you jose. i just wont to encorage you to really pray about it and see what God has instore for you and your family.
to aimee and everyone i challege you and im going to try do this more to talk to 3 complet strangers by the end of this year it doesnt have to be about God but something to do with him and or just saying hello and inviting them to talk to you. im going to do this and just see what happens who will join me on this step out.
I know this adds nothing to the conversation, but I wanted to share this. I saw this show on TV last night adn I noticed a lot of Post-Modern things in it which relate to christianity. This young woman from london, who was a recovering alcoholic, went and joined an african tribe for a month. (I know you will have a LOT to say about this Paul, so go for it). What the girl discovered there was a very deep sense of community and love there within the women. SHe fell ill and couldn't do anything, so the family caring for her did everything they could to make her better. They were so worried that even they couldn't eat! I thought that they way the people behaved as a community, loving and caring for one another in a brutal place with a brutal lifestyle, was how the church should be behaving towards each other and others. The young woman left with a new outlook on the world and said "For the first time I felt loved for who I was despite the bad things I did in the past as an alcoholic". I couldn't help but think "I hope you find God - HE loves you as you are and will forgive what you did in the past"
There are some great ideas in your discussion ( we are missing some people however).
I will comment on your inputs after Nov. 16th.
To Amiee I agree with you that we should go oout looking to make friends then bring in christianity however what happens when that person does not fit our criteria for a friend?Do we then move on and so doing become like the people who move passed the man in the ditch in the paribale of the good Samaritan, because they do not fit our critewria they still need to find God
To Amiee, with your commants on the TV show, you have a post modern person going back to the ancient times, before any modern technoligie, man against the wild humand life becomes more inportant that anything. The more luxurys we have the more we turn towards satisfing our needs the more time we have to waiste, the more time we spend surching for addrennalin and acceptance.
Jose I love your Idea I think it would be great.
Joshua was particulary good at this meating new people, while he was at collage he jioned the radio club, got his boat radio liecence and jioned the courty dance group with Jim and Marrilen to mention a few. We all saw how quickly he got to know the people in Fiji and how he interacted with the peolpe. He is naturaly gifted at it and it was one of the things I admired about him
to Nick: i think that is a good idear in joining agroup like tennis i whatch micheal witness when he was in a soccer team and i never knew till he told me just how impacting that was till he after he finish playing soccer. I have one question thought and that once you get started in group will you out reach to all people or just the pepole you think you could make friends with ? i be really intersted in what you have to say?
question#1
i think you need to go to where they are, find them, ally ways, bars,schools, clubs. show them it is ok to be out and do things, just in moderation, but dont tell them show them, they will see your choices and how they work out in your life and question their own choises. if you go to where they are then you have a far better chance of forming a relationship with them because they will be that you do not believe youa re above them, love them
question#2
this is a very hard one for me because i can go over and over in my mind of what i would say but i can never fnd the words i am not good with conversation i like to live my faith and i try to so loadly that my "unchurched" friends cant help but wonder where my hope comes from and they will ask the questions, and this has happened to me. and i go from there explaining why i hope and at this point they can not deny my words are truth because they have witnessed it the very actions that prompted them to ask in the first place
question#3
i would really like to understand completely where the postmoderest is coming from so i could really truely reach them, but sadly i have missed your class but i will continue to try to live Jesus and hoe that they will seek and i know they will find God promises us that
praise him he is amazing!
Amy G - in response to your question I would do my best to reach out to all there, but I think the reality would be that it would be very difficult to reach out to anyone unless I have a good relationship with them. So I think in the scheme of things it would probably end up being those who I was friends with.
Regarding question 2 - that's a hard one to answer. I guess I just have to ask God for opportunities to have these conversations with people and then trust the Spirit to work. One thing that we've talked about with James Hinkle this week is that we should make people aware of God working in their lives. So I guess when people are talking about things that are going on in their lives, somehow tie that into God's providence and His desire to be involved in our lives.
Aimee - that's a really interesting observation that you found on the TV show. I truly believe that our Western culture's not what we crack it up to be, and this is a sign of that. We have a culture full of lonely, hurting people. I guess that's why we need to be so active and show them Jesus.
One thing I would like to cover more in terms of this subject is learning more about other religions and what they believe. i need to have a better understanding of the other worldviews that exist, if I don't then how can I defend my own?
To Aimee: Your idea of beautifying Campbelltown isn't silly. Even if you don't strike up a conversation about God with someone the whole idea of getting out there and doing something positive is what counts. This environment that God gave us needs to be looked after and it sounds to me like Campbell town could do with a bit of a spruce up. If you could strike up a group of like minded people you really could do some awesome things. Happy hunting.
i think that it is a good idea if we all try to talk to non christian and just be their friend without risking our belief. so, to amy and aimee, lets go girls!!!wanna join terance?
by the way, welcome back to shawnean......we really missed you a lot.
to aimee, thank you for sharing with us about the show that you've watch. It really is a very interesting show because base on what you've said here, it can really open up the eyes of others who are blinded by the post medernism can offer them. But it is also sad that they have to undergo to some failure and pressure in life for them to be able to identify their real purpose in life. Still, like what others usually say, better late than never.
to nick,
i guess you are right about knowing first what other religions believe and how they understand and know God. but how do you think we can do that?
to nick,
i guess you are right about knowing first what other religions believe and how they understand and know God. but how are we going to do that?
Ask: how do we present the Gospel?
Do we doorknock, evangelise on the street? Do we need to wait til we have respect in a relationship and then bring the good nows. We need to be selfless, waiting for opportunities to evangelise and then do so.
Hey Jose, I thought that smoker idea was a brilliant one too:)
prev = cam
Good to see comments backed up by action Paul, I see you've already begun a fishing ministry
Dear Aimee:
it is wonderful to see people find God isn't it. That's a tremendous reward that we receive for doing our part in evangelising
Shawnean, I agree with you in that finding an empathy with people is vital to the bringing of the Message to others. People need to know we love and care. It is also good if we can have at least somewhat of an understanding of where they are coming from.
Leenette - I guess through research and and opportunities to talk to people that practice other religions.
regarding to Q.1 I think i like to go to the coffee shop and because in Thailand now people like to go to the coffee shop to do their work, chat etc. It is a new community that we can reach out the unchurched. Just like in the book "They like Jesus but not the church" The pastor like to out to the coffee shop to prepare his sermon but he also wants to get to know new friends, new people so he can use that opportunity to reach out to them.
To Cameron: I never said she found God. God still worked in her though, and she had a moment where he met her, I am sure.
TO Paul: I don't have crieteria for friends, I will be friends with anyone if they want to be friends. But regardless, I try to help people and live as CHrist for them even if I don't like them. We meet people everyday - they come and go in and out of our lives so frequently. We can't meet them all, and we can't be friends with all of them, but we can meet them where they are, treat them as an equal, respect them as a human being, help them where possible and live as CHrist for them - that is what we are called to do.
How does recognising truly “Jesus is Lord” and missional DNA change our approach to the gospel?
Before we address this question, we need to explain briefly, what ‘mDNA’ is. DNA is what directs the goal or point of Christianity: to glorify God and add to His Kingdom in the process. The ‘m’ part is put at the front to show what part we play. It is said that this mDNA is within all of us through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Hirsch says, “How else can we explain how the underground churches in China activated Apostolic Genius? They intuitively seemed to know what to do….” we find it in ourselves; it is part of our genetic spiritual makeup.
As Cole said, “we need to have a heart for the unevangelised,” (80) and “the Western world [is to be viewed as, CB] a mission field (81). MDNA encourages/directs us to jettison the church networks if they are inhibiting our evangelising of the Gospel. As Christians we need to approach this with the catholic Church statement, “Jesus is Lord.” We are inviting people everywhere into this one body of Christ, not numerous pockets congregations. All Christians have in them Apostolic Genius and contain mDNA, however every Christian’s mDNA is different, for we are all different and have different parts to play in the Kingdom of God.
“Jesus is Lord!” Christianity is a monotheistic religion: we have only ONE God. Looking at the Hebrew it is evident that God is a highly jealous god and wants no god acknowledged or worshipped apart from him. Christians are not polytheists but monotheists. In society today, we see a multi-cultural Western World. Consequent to this there are numerous religions that we need to be aware of (e.g.’s Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, existentialism etc.). What’s more, Hirsch mentions the susceptibility man has to such ‘gods’ as consumerism; we need to acknowledge our one Lord and with our mDNA live a life of dedication to Christ and the mission of God.
The required centrality of Jesus is emphasised greatly for the church is built on one rock, which is Jesus Christ. We are told, “Christianity is essentially a ‘Jesus movement’ and not a religion as such.” (P. 99)
Also - as was discussed in the book with China - we need to see that the church does not have to be some highly complex institution, but plainly a body of believers who adhere to the teaching of Christ.
By Cameron
The following comments are for all. However, I will address each of you as a follow up to your discussions. And, I would welcome your responses to my comments.
JOSE:
You mentioned your work place and home and then two "third place" areas: 1) your sports club and 2) a coffee shop to discuss the book on stopping smoking. The home and the work place are two areas of course that can be used, but are more "threating" in some ways. The home as it is more intimate and the workplace as it may be viewed as interfering with "work". However, your idea of using your experience of stopping smoking in conjuction with a) A non-threating book (from a spiritual point of book though of course the book/discussion will have spiritual dimensions) for discussions and b) a third place like a coffee shop is an excellent and proven approach to postmoderns. You might even be more successful if the coffee shop or even a bar allows smoking. I would certainly pursue this idea. You would be a) authentic as you have experienced what you discussing 2) You engage in meaningful discussions in a non-threating way and 3) You are doing so in a common "third place" where others could also join and engage the conversation. Go for it!
AIMEE:
The "third places" of sports clubs and coffee shops are certainly places to engage. I would suggest that use of these areas is more effective if you, as Jose suggested, use a "book discussion" approach to engage people there. That may or may not be possible at the sports clubs depending on whether a "cafe" or meeting place area is available there. Books relating physical health to spiritual health might be in order here.
It is certainly true that having "pre-determined "questions" could lead one to have a "mind-set" to convert. Your approach of just being a friend first and approaching spiritual topics after a relationship is established is certainly the right order. However, one can "be a friend" of someone and never ever discuss spiritual matters. Jesus certainly was intentional with the "women at the well" in knowing how to turn a conversation about "water" into a spiritual discussion. So, I would suggest that knowing the kinds of questions to ask at the appropriate time is not the same as same as looking at a person as a "prospect" for conversion. Rather it is more like being ready to give an answer for our faith.
Your idea of creating a "Beautify This Ugly Town" group is a great idea. It a) provides a needed service to the community b) engages something the postmoderns are concerned about i.e environment concerns and c) provides an excellent means of letting Christians work alongside non-Christians. This type of community engagement is just what the church needs to be doing in the postmodern world. Go for it!
NICK:
One important idea you conveyed was being intentional about "finding new ways to meet new people". This is so important if we are to get out of our "club" mentality and engage the world in an incarnational manner. The "place" we do this depends on or own interests,abilities, and gifts. We do that by "reaching out" and being friends as you said. So often we disengage totally from the world when we become members of the "club". Yet, there is where the "hurting people" are that can be served.
It is also profitable to know what other religions that we are likely to encounter believe. In NZ this seems to be the oriental beliefs.
LEENETTE:
Your insight in that you "can't have a script on what you are going to say" is very, very true. "Having a script" was one of the approaches used for engagement in the modern world. That approach certainly does not convey authenticity. You are like a salesman selling membership in a club. Genuine conversations are certainly unpredictable. But, being ready to turn the conversation to spiritual matters is important.
Inviting your friends over to share your experiences you have had in NZ is a good idea. However, the meeting should be structured in such a way that your friends think you are trying to "convert" them. But, rather it is a real sharing of experiences. It is likely questions will come up naturally from your sharing.
It is also true that people are more interested in spiritual matters in times of crisis. What are common crisis events in your home city that you might minister to??
PAUL:
All of your third place ideas are good i.e. a) the fishing club b) the coffee shop and c) the drug arm. Of these probably the fishing club and drug arm hold the greatest potential for you. The fishing club is a great place due to your passion for fishing and the quiet times ( e.g. around the camp fire on the beach you talked about with me) you have with those with a common passion. Your conversations about nature would take them from things they appreciate to deeper matters ( similar to Jesus at the Woman at the Well). And, forming a drug arm ( or joining one) in Rotorua is an excellent idea. Those hurting and in crisis are very, very receptive to spiritual matters especially when you are providing a needed service that directly serves their need. Go for both of these ideas!!
The question you asked as follows: "What happens when that person does not fit our criteria for a friend?" is an excellent one. Not all people we need to serve do we wish to "be our friend" in the sense that is the person we "delight in the presence of". But, that does not mean that we cannot serve them. It is clear that Jesus served many people, but the indication is he had only few close friends. So, even though postmoderns want authentic relationships, it is also true that they will response to true service to them and to the community.
CAMERON:
You had several suggestions: homes, church, social clubs, sports venues, social events, family seminars. Certainly all of these can be used. However, for reaching out, some are better than others. For example, we typically have used family seminars as a way to "attract" the unchurched to our "church". Though such a event provides a needed service, if our attitude is to "attract" them to the church, it is not likely to have very much fruit. Better would be such a seminar in a "third place" --some other large meeting place-- with follow up with those that can relate/counsel serve them individually. The home is usually much better for those we have some relationship with or have already shown spiritual interest. This is not true if we using it to develop relationships e.g. using our home to host a neighborhood BBQ.
All of your questions are good ones to deepen the conversation: How has your day been; emphasize with those that are in difficulty; speaking about activities you are engaged in, etc.
Aimee's observation that when "getting along side with someone and sympathizing with them" you should "take your time" is a very good one. Those you are sympathizing with should not get the idea your are using their trouble to advance your own agenda with them.
AMY G.
One question I have for you is why do you think it is easier to talk to a stranger that is not a Christian than talking to a Christian?
Instead of creating a bar without the alcohol, why not just have a book discussion group in a regular bar? After all, that is where the postmoderns are.
Thanks for encouraging Jose on the smoking idea.
Your challenge for everyone to talk to 3 complete strangers by the end of the year is excellent. You might consider incorporating the BELLS concept (see my presentation notes). This would make this even better.
SHAWNEAN
You have some good observations. "If you go where they are, you have a far better chance of forming a relationship with them because they will be that your do not believe your are above them." This is the incarnational idea.
Living your faith is the essence of authenticity. And, letting others ask the questions is exactly what is it means when we are admonished to "give and answer" to "everyone that asks us".
Please read all of the readings and all of my notes to help you understand postmoderns in answer to your desire to know more. Also, I will be happy to answer questions you might have even after the class is over. So ask.
EDDIE:
Going to the coffee shop is great if that is where a lot of people to. I would suggest, you form a book discussion group there and this would make this venue even more effective.
Prof Response Comments Continued:
TERANCE:
It is great that the people at the squash club you go to have been asking you about God.
As I indicated with Paul, setting up a drug arm in Rotorua is an excellent idea. You and Paul need to get together and really work on this idea.
As far as coffee shops vs the pub is concerned. Either may or may not be best depending on both the community and the person reaching out. The coffee shop is probably better for book discussion concepts. The pub may be better certain other outreach efforts.
Terance your idea of setting up a home for the homeless is also an extremely good idea. This is one that you could also partner with others in the community who might be unchurched themselves. This is the type of community outreach postmoderns are very interested in doing. Go for it!
CAMERON: You have an excellent discussion of mDNA. Well Done!
First of all, i would like to thank you for your comment and with regards to your question, i really wanted to deal with the kids and be able to help them in any way i can because some kids in my hometown were being forced by their parents to do hard labour like working in the rice field or just being a house servant in order to survive. Now that Christmas is just a few days away, some of the workers at the firecracker factory were kids as young as 7 years old. Imagine kids doing dangerous work. Every year there will always be a report that a factory exploded and some workers were killed and most of them are kids. We can only be kids once in our lifetime so i wanted them to experience just being kids. If I were a rich person, i would probably put up a foundation that would save kids from doing hard and dangerous work. I would provide for their education, teach them about God and give them shelter and food. In some remote area, kids were being thought by rebel people to hold a gun and even kill. So, in my own little way, i wanted to start by teaching kids about the bible and God’s story. Hopefully, i can reach out to their heart and would probably set a good example by giving them encouragement about life.
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